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Author Topic:   Were there Dinosaurs in the Bible?
spin
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 222 (166341)
12-08-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by arachnophilia
12-08-2004 5:05 PM


Re: Something I think I've mentioned before...
but i don't think he's talking about anything even remotely mythological, at least until we get to leviathan
I think he is and he isn't.
I've struggled with Leviathan for a very long time. This name is Lotan in the Ugaritic literature. But in Gen 1 and in the Babylonian creation we deal with the same creature under the name (Heb)tehom/(Akk)Tiamat (the deep, the dangerous waters) and she is the chaos dragon. Isa 27:1, an incredibly close parallel to a piece from Ugarit, is clearly the chaos dragon, though here called Leviathan. The Job passage is not the only one which links Leviathan and Behemoth: see also 2 Esdras 6:49 and 2 Baruch 29:4-5 (in an apocalyptic context) -
quote:
And Behemoth shall be revealed from his place and Leviathan shall ascend from the sea, those two great monsters which I created on the fifth day of creation, and shall have kept until that time; and then they shall 5 be for food for all that are left.
and 1 Enoch 60:7-8
quote:
7 And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the 8 abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named Duidain, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell
Isaiah 30:6 is also a probable mention of Behemoth calling it Behemoth of the desert, which most translators see as beasts BHMT of the Negev (=south, =desert) and in the following verse we get a mention of tehom in its guise of Rahab (just another name for the chaotic water dragon).
These two creatures are bound together in citations. Behemoth is found in the desert and Leviathan in the deep. If you need the background work on Leviathan/tehom, I suppose I can dig it up, but the Babylonian Tiamat preserves the feminine Semitic ending (the /t/) while it's lost in tehom (Hebrew generally lost it), though it is preserved in Behemoth (which in form might be confused with the plural of "beast" [i]BHM[/b].
We have THM from the chaotic deep and BHM from the empty desert. Now the words in Gen 1:2 for "chaos" (ie without form) and "empty" are THW and BHW. Tehom/Leviathan and Behemoth are clearly and originally derived from THW W-BHW and thus by necessity born from myth. But it is not strange in the very physical language of Hebrew, that these creatures take on more physical characteristics, so that they will have the literary appearance of real animals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 5:05 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2004 2:37 AM spin has replied

spin
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 222 (166494)
12-09-2004 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by arachnophilia
12-09-2004 2:37 AM


Tehom, Leviathan, Rahab and Behemoth
it does line up very nicely, but i think you're drawing a few too many parallels. and it's tanniyn, not tehom. tanniyn simply means snake. the reason i say dragons for the gen 1 verse is not the word snake, but word that modifies it. it says "GREAT serpents" ie: dragons.
Tehom is the deep in Gen 1:2, but let us look more closely.
Firstly we have the obvious linguistic connection with Tiamat: they are cognates. Tiamat was the chaos dragon which Marduk slayed. Note in Genesis 1:2 that the divine wind was on the face of the waters. In the Babylonian version this wind was the Umhullu wind which Marduk used to slay Tiamat, the wind forcing Tiamat's mouth open and Marduk was able to force his sword in. The battle is not enunciated in Gen 1, but the elements are there. Then, once Tiamat was killed, Marduk slit her in half and lifted half up to the heavens and out of the other half he created the world. Tehom's role in Gen 1 has totally been sublimated. So, I'm happy that I am principally dealing with tehom. The serpent tannym is merely another name.
Isaiah 30:6 -
it says behemah here, or "beasts." but the words are obviously very similiar. i don't see much reason to think it refers to behemoth at all. especially since that line is actually an addition, after the initial writing of the text. in my version, it's set of from the verse (like poetic verse, not bible verse), and says "the 'beasts of the negev' pronouncement." it's a chapter heading, basically.
The text I have definitely says BHMWT. Check it out here.
I said that in the following verse, ie 30:7, we get a reference to Rahab, which is another name used for out chaos dragon. See Ps 89:9ff. God "rules the raging of the sea" we are told followed by the fact that he "crushed Rahab like a carcass". Isaiah 51:9 has the parallelism, "didn't you cut Rahab to pieces, pierce the dragon" immediately followed by "Was it not you who dried up the sea?" Rahab is simply another label for our sea monster/watery chaos dragon and in Isaiah 30:7 we get her mentioned in a verse straight after the mention of Behemoth. This is not coincidental.
But let us not get hung up about Isa 30:6-7, as it doesn't further the basic thesis I put forward. It was just another example of the two creatures appearing together in the same passage.
i think that although both were likely mythological, they were not strictly so. rather, the images used were probably drawn from real animals.
I thought that that was what I was saying. Wasn't it?
What I need to understand is the alternation between the Mesopotamian Tiamat, the Ugaritic Lotan, the Hebrew tehom in Gen 1 and the use of Leviathan elsewhere.
Isaiah 27:1 is an extremely close parallel to a Ugaritic text, so close that I would normally suspect literary borrowing, but how can one connect a text whose latest date is about 1170 BCE (from a civilization which simply folded up shop with its destruction at the hands of the Sea Peoples) and another of perhaps seven hundred years later. It may simply have been a piece of recited poetry which survived all that time.
My guess with the tehom story, ie the undertext of Gen 1, is that it was written either during or after the exile under the influence of the Babylonian creation story and then later filtered through the centralising effect of the one god theology.
This would mean that the two strands may be originally the one story which took two separate routes into the Jewish tradition.
To complicate things further I get the impression that Leviathan is sometimes used as a symbol of Egypt, which would suggest that Behemoth is a symbol for the other great power in Mesopotamia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2004 2:37 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by arachnophilia, posted 12-10-2004 2:23 AM spin has not replied

spin
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 222 (167205)
12-11-2004 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Amlodhi
12-11-2004 4:24 AM


Re: Tehom, Leviathan, Rahab and Behemoth
Hi Amlodhi.
Amlodhi writes:
בהמות in Isaiah 30:6 is applied differently (both contextually and grammatically) than בהמות in Job 40:15.
The term in Isaiah is the plural construct form: "beasts of . . ."
Naturally, I don't agree with this analysis, though it may eventually be correct. Behemoth and beasts have the same appearance in Hebrew (as very small "minute" is like sixty seconds "minute"), however, I have pointed to two indicators which support thr choice of Behemoth:
  1. the phrase is Behemoth of the desert (Negeb), remembering 1 Enoch 60:7-8
    And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the 8 abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named Duidain
    Behemoth of the wilderness in Ethiopian translated into English is the desert of the Hebrew original (just as the bohu of Gen 1:2 was the desert waste, empty of life). And
  2. in the following verse we have a reference to Rahab, the third in the tehom/leviathan/rahab terms to refer to the the watery chaos dragon, associated a number of times with Behemoth as the above citation indicates.
Obviously the phrase itself M$) BHMWT NGB gives no indication that it could mean the plural "beasts". You have to work from what follows to try to validate the "beasts" reading.
To go against something I've already said, one proposed etymology of Behemoth is from Egyptian p-ehe-mu (water beast/ox), which does suggest the hippopotamus. We are in a passage specifically about Egypt.
The reading of "beasts" seems generally questionable.
spin
This message has been edited by spin, 12-11-2004 02:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Amlodhi, posted 12-11-2004 4:24 AM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Amlodhi, posted 12-13-2004 3:38 PM spin has not replied

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