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Author Topic:   Evolution for Dummies and Christians
Carico
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 299 (266634)
12-07-2005 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Yaro
12-07-2005 3:21 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
You just contradicted yourself. You said that we've been able to cross-breed to obtain a chihuahua from a wolf and now you say they cannot interbreed. So which is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Yaro, posted 12-07-2005 3:21 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2005 11:28 PM Carico has replied
 Message 216 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-07-2005 11:31 PM Carico has not replied
 Message 220 by MangyTiger, posted 12-07-2005 11:37 PM Carico has not replied
 Message 225 by NosyNed, posted 12-07-2005 11:51 PM Carico has replied

Carico
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 299 (266636)
12-07-2005 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Yaro
12-07-2005 2:56 PM


If a human being takes a sperm from one dog and fertilizes it with the egg from another dog and that creates a new breed, then why do humans do that if those dogs could do it by themselves??? You forget that humans were not around to manipulte the egg and sperm of apes to create the human being! So again, your point is completely useless. Cross-breeding is a HUMAN manipulation. It does not occur on its own because animals only mate within their own species. Lions are not attracted to leopards and tigers are not attracted to wolves. Only human beings can manipulate the egg and sperm from each species to breed animals. And again, the human wasn't around to do that before the human being waas created.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Yaro, posted 12-07-2005 2:56 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2005 11:33 PM Carico has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 215 of 299 (266637)
12-07-2005 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Carico
12-07-2005 11:21 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
one intermediate can obviously interbreed with the ones before and after it, but after a certain distance, the ability to interbredd declines so that end results generally cannot breed.
with a chihuahua and a great dane, i suspect it's actually strictly practical reasons, not genetic ones.
quote:
”Mind-boggling’ variation
At the DNA level, two randomly chosen dogs differ only about as much as two randomly chosen people, yet the variation in appearance, size and behavior in dogs is “just mind-boggling,” Lander said in an earlier interview.
“How is it within one narrow gene pool you can produce Chihuahuas and Great Danes?” he asked.
Much of the answer involves differences in turning gene activity on and off, he said, and further study could improve the understanding of that.
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
seriously, can you image a great dane getting on with a chihuahua? either way, i feel bad for the female.
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 12-07-2005 11:29 PM

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:21 PM Carico has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:32 PM arachnophilia has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 216 of 299 (266638)
12-07-2005 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Carico
12-07-2005 11:21 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
You said that we've been able to cross-breed to obtain a chihuahua from a wolf and now you say they cannot interbreed. So which is it?
Both are true. Over thousands of generations, canis were selectively bred, very gradually becoming less and less wolf-like and more and more chihuahua-like with each generation.
After all of those generations, trying to naturally mate the chihuahua "product" with the wild wolves it was derived from is essentially impossible.
From your comments throughout the board you seem to be working under the misconception that evolution from one species to another occurs in a single generation, so that you envision a scenario such as a chimp giving birth to a human. This is the exact opposite of what the Theory of Evolution predicts. In fact, if a chimp gave birth to a human, the Theory of Evolution would be falsified, that is, proved wrong. Instead, evolution is extremely gradual in nearly all instances.
Welcome to the forum - I hope you stay awhile and keep an open mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:21 PM Carico has not replied

Carico
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 299 (266639)
12-07-2005 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by arachnophilia
12-07-2005 11:28 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
Oh? And when was the magic point where certain dogs stopped breed with other dogs and apes stopped interbreeding with humans? Do you even know what you're saying? You're suggesting offspring through bestiality which is not only perverse, but has never shown to be possible. You also have zero proof that animals and humans have EVER been able to interbreed except only in the imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2005 11:28 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by crashfrog, posted 12-07-2005 11:35 PM Carico has not replied
 Message 221 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2005 11:41 PM Carico has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 218 of 299 (266640)
12-07-2005 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Carico
12-07-2005 11:28 PM


lions and tigers, oh my.
Lions are not attracted to leopards and tigers are not attracted to wolves.
no, but apparently if you put a lion and a tiger of opposite sexes in a cage, they do mate.
quote:
Known ligers exist due to human influence, either by deliberate human intervention, or by humans putting lions and tigers in enclosed spaces together. In natural conditions tigers and lions generally do not inhabit the same territory - the two species used to coexist in the wild in India, but inhabited different regions.
Liger - Wikipedia
the only reason they don't breed in the wild is because they don't live in the same places.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:28 PM Carico has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 219 of 299 (266642)
12-07-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Carico
12-07-2005 11:32 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
And when was the magic point where certain dogs stopped breed with other dogs and apes stopped interbreeding with humans?
For humans? Roughly 2 million years ago. By the way, the "magic point" is called "speciation."
You're suggesting offspring through bestiality which is not only perverse,
That's your argument? Evolution is wrong because you don't like sex with animals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:32 PM Carico has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2005 11:42 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 224 by NosyNed, posted 12-07-2005 11:44 PM crashfrog has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6344 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 220 of 299 (266643)
12-07-2005 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Carico
12-07-2005 11:21 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
It appears you not only don't understand the Theory of Evolution but you don't have the slightest grasp of selective breeding either.
For the umpteenth time...
In the ancient past our ancestors began to domesticate wolves. Apparently from the DNA evidence it was specifically grey wolves. By a process of selective breeding (i.e. getting rid of the animals with traits they didn't want and keeping and breeding from those with traits they did want) they began to change the population of wolves they were dealing with.
Over a large number of generations the wolves became less and less wolf like and more and more dog like. Eventually the animals were wolves, not dogs.
All of the modern breeds of dog descend from these populations of domesticated wolves.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:21 PM Carico has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 221 of 299 (266646)
12-07-2005 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Carico
12-07-2005 11:32 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
Oh? And when was the magic point where certain dogs stopped breed with other dogs and apes stopped interbreeding with humans?
who said anything about apes and humans? i was just pointing out that chihuahuas and great danes could concievably interbreed if it were practical. they are the same species, even genetically.
even across species, many animals can and do interbreed. some because of humans, other do it themselves.
quote:
Some animal interspecies hybrids are:
  • Mule, a cross of female horse and a male donkey.
  • Hinny, a cross between a female donkey and a male horse.
  • Zeedonk/zonkey, a zebra/donkey cross.
  • Zorse or zebroid, a zebra/horse cross
  • Zony/zetland, a zebra/pony cross ("zony" is a generic term; "zetland" is specifically a hybrid of the Shetland pony breed with a zebra)
  • Dzo or zo: a cross between a domestic cow/bull and a yak. See also Bovid hybrid.
  • Beefalo/cattalo, a cross of an American Bison and a domestic cow. This is a fertile breed, although the two species are in different genera (Bison and Bos, respectively). See also Bovid hybrid.
  • Hybrids between sheep and goat, such as the Toast of Batswana .
  • Hybrids between black bears, brown bears, Kodiak and polar bears ursinae hybrids.
  • Wolfdog, the cross between a domestic dog and a Wolf. Fertile Canid hybrids occur between coyotes, wolves, dingos, jackals and domestic dogs. Dogs and wolves may be considered the same species, making wolfdogs a non-hybrid.
  • Hybrids between spotted owls and barred owls
  • Liger (or Tigon, depending on the parents' genders), a cross between a Lion and a Tiger. Various other wild cat crosses are known involving the Lynx, Bobcat, Leopard, Serval, etc (Felid_hybrids).
  • Hybrids between the domestic cat and wild cat species. The domestic cat, African wild cat and European wildcat may be considered variant populations of the same species (F libyca), making such crosses non-hybrids.
  • Congolese Spotted Lion
  • Cama, a cross between a Camel and a Llama, also an intergeneric hybrid.
  • Wolphin, a fertile but very rare cross between a False Killer Whale and a Bottlenose Dolphin.
  • A fertile cross between an albino King Snake and an albino Corn Snake.
  • At Chester Zoo in England, a cross between African elephant (male) and Indian elephant (female). The calf was named Motty. It died of gut infection after a few days.
  • Cagebird breeders sometimes make hybrids between species of finch, such as goldfinch x canary.
Some plant hybrids include:
  • Leyland Cypress, a hybrid between Monterey Cypress and Nootka Cypress.
  • Loganberry, a hybrid between raspberry and blackberry.
  • London Plane, a hybrid between Oriental Plane and American Plane (American Sycamore).
  • Tangelo, a hybrid of a mandarin orange and a pomelo or a grapefruit which may have been developed in Asia about 3,500 years ago.
  • Triticale, a wheat-rye hybrid.
  • Wheat, Most modern and ancient wheat breeds are themselves hybrids.
Hybrid - Wikipedia
evidently, this line does not lie at the species boundary.
Do you even know what you're saying?
yes, i do. do you know what i'm saying? evidently not, mr. jump-to-conclusions.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:32 PM Carico has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-07-2005 11:56 PM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 222 of 299 (266648)
12-07-2005 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by crashfrog
12-07-2005 11:35 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
By the way, the "magic point" is called "speciation."
i hate to be a pain in the ass about this, but there ARE species that can and do interbreed.
Evolution is wrong because you don't like sex with animals?
i don't believe in aids either.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by crashfrog, posted 12-07-2005 11:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by crashfrog, posted 12-07-2005 11:43 PM arachnophilia has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 223 of 299 (266649)
12-07-2005 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by arachnophilia
12-07-2005 11:42 PM


Re: Dogs, dogs, and more dogs
i hate to be a pain in the ass about this, but there ARE species that can and do interbreed.
Well, the first hard and fast rule of biology is that there are no hard and fast rules (exception: this rule).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2005 11:42 PM arachnophilia has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 224 of 299 (266650)
12-07-2005 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by crashfrog
12-07-2005 11:35 PM


magic point
As I noted in the post I refered to in Message 161 in Message 200 there isn't likely to be any such "magic point".
Carico? It seems you didn't read that reference. If you don't read what information you are given and ask about it you will not make any progress here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by crashfrog, posted 12-07-2005 11:35 PM crashfrog has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 225 of 299 (266654)
12-07-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Carico
12-07-2005 11:21 PM


Learning by taking the time to read
Carico, Did you read the post I refered you to in Message 200?
You are taking the approach, still, that you know something about this and will catch people in major flaws. While individuals will make mistakes here what you are told is generally correct. When it sound crazy to you it is because you don't understand it.
If you keep up your current attitude you will either make no progress or find it much, much slower than it has to be.
Evolutionary theory is, at one level, simple. The details are horrifically complex. Try to get an overall understanding before you dive in too deep.
The other thing you need to get straight is that if you've been fed material by the likes of the Institute for Creation Research or Answers in Genesis or many others you have been lied to or at least deliberately mislead. You may not be ready to accept that as the case yet but it will make it easier if you take that as a bit of background and a working hypothosis for the moment. It might help clear the clutter out for you.
The other working idea to keep in mind is that you will not be deliberately mislead my most folks here.
I hope we aren't all jumping on too fast. It may be a lot but it may also help if we present the same information in different ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 11:21 PM Carico has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Carico, posted 12-08-2005 12:03 AM NosyNed has replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 467 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 226 of 299 (266658)
12-07-2005 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Carico
12-07-2005 12:22 PM


According to your logic, we should just keep the belief that the earth was the center of the universe and that there was no such thing as a supernova.
You claimed to have accepted the theory of evolution for 30 years. I'm beginning to think that you're only 15 for having such naive beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 12:22 PM Carico has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 227 of 299 (266661)
12-07-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by arachnophilia
12-07-2005 11:41 PM


intergeneric love
evidently, this line does not lie at the species boundary.
It doesn't lie at the genus boundary, either. (At least not for cichlids).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2005 11:41 PM arachnophilia has not replied

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