Is anyone else fed up with Muslims complaining all the time?

Wow, I was surprised to read this post. I don't understand this complaint.Without question there are a bunch of hotheaded islamic fanatics out there, as well as people generally ignorant of what is happening and whose only media input are by such fanatics. So its not suprising that when something is done to or said about people in the Islamic world there are going to be fanatics who demonstrate and ignorant people who demonstrate along those same lines.Unfortunately a lot of bad things, or offensive things are being done to/said about Muslims which gives many moderates as well as fanatics a valid reason to be upset. And in turn this creates an atmosphere where relatively minor issues can be blown out of proportion... people being oversensitive.To make matters worse, the media are sensitized to such possibilities and give undo focus to such events, making them more numeorus and large than they actually are to the entire Muslim population. And of course what that does is feed the fanatics (or anyone else that wants public exposure) to use those same methods.So it seems to me that your complaints are misplaced. What you are referring to is a self-fulfilling prophecy/vicious circle between a portion of the Islamic community and the media fueled by actual events which are cause for concern.But to answer your question, my answer would be no. There is a lot of garbage in the media and I simply filter what doesn't look that important. There are several real complaints coming from the Islamic community which are real and so I pay more attention to those.And frankly I do not see more annoying/unimportant struggles making headlines from the Muslim community. Madonna's latest tour has been making headlines practically at each stop because of angry Xians. Here there were demonstrations and a priest phoned in a bomb threat. ID and homeschooling sure were big topics, as well as trying to set up idols to the 10 commandments outside every court house.Outside of purely religious issues I consistently see headlines regarding people upset with this or that topic of media interest (usually sex), and worse of all politicians moaning about anything and everything under the sun so that we should vote them into office or accept them selling away our freedom. I for one am getting pissed off with the reaction of media unsavvy viewers throughout the world, making claims to critical thinking, yet what is the first thing they do when they see something that is obviously a media hype of limited scops? Forget it or analyze what it means? No, it is to immediately buy into "appearances" and denounce whole groups of people using the stereotype the media "illusion" created. Okay, that was the first time I tried to do a smiley, so I hoped it worked.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I don't understand what you mean by "same vigour". So you want muslims who are peaceful and not represented by violent or "always moaning" muslim factions, to resort to violence and "always moan" about these other factions? I mean if you are already irritated by news reports of muslims upset by people distorting Islam, how is it going to make it better when you hear them engaging in more such commentary directed at other muslims?If you mean large groups putting out statements that denounce such demonstrations I might add that such commentary is already out there. If your media isn't showing it then that is solely a commentary on your media. AQ itself targets other Islamic denominations, most of whom are the majority of Islam. Its absurd to think they aren't speaking against AQ or actions by such fanatics.Perhaps your media chooses not to show the denunciations of these eye catching demonstations because they are not eye catching, nor do they fit the stereotype which is so enjoyed by mass audiences. People may have wanted their darkies eating watermelon or wearing bones through their noses in the past, and so that's what the media provided. Right now people want to see their A-rabs boiling over with rage and acting irrationally. That's what's being provided.You might want to notice what the size of those demonstrations are to the total populace, and that the police involved are generally not turning to join in the demonstrations. In fact someone ordered those police in. All of them are muslims.Edited by holmes, : clarity

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Buz and Co usually leave out the obvious.Jesus was not God in a vaccuum. He was only able to be considered the son of the Jewish God because incredibly bloodthirsty peoples under both Moses and King David massacred countless numbers of people who weren't overtly hostile to them. Its right there in the Bible.Further he could only be considered King of the Jews by tracing lineage to King David, who did everything that Mohammed is claimed to have done AND MORE! Its not like Jesus and his followers were trying to downplay that connection and so veneration.Mohammed found himself in the same position as the earliest leaders of Judaism. He acted just the same, except perhaps slightly more restraint. Edited by holmes, : not beenEdited by holmes, : not of

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Do you not get legitimate news stories such as the Canadian who was abducted by the US based on false charges by the RCMP and tortured for a year? He is currently complaining, is Islamic and it seems to make sense.I share your lack of enthusiasm for religious radicals and the idiocy they get up to, I'm just not understanding why they are grabbing more news space than other organized idiocies. Isn't it possible he was already a nutcase, but the Xian crazies didn't have the same level of hatred and persecution complex that the Islamic community would provide him. I mean look at the guaranteed anger he could genuinely receive by saying so many stupid things, in fact some of the same types of things Xians have said with no rebuke.You will remember that some Xians "praised" the 9/11 attacks.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Is atheism abnormal or just a statistical minority? Not sure if I'd want those two confused.It doesn't surprise me though that the majority of humans have been intellectually lazy.BtW: I saw your reply in the new mod thread. I'll reply here so as not to risk wrath of the gods... I mean admins. Feel free to mock my writing and make suggestions, and I am not kidding. I desire the ability to write clearly to both layman and professionals and am in envy of those who can. Though I may be in complete opposition to some creo's positions, I recognize that a few have extremely clear and lucid writing.I am currently studying Archer, Ben (when he writes), and Omniverous as role models for improvement. I'd add cavediver but some of his physics explanations still go right past me.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I understand your explanation for why your media might be focusing on these stories, but then it supports my own reasoning for why they are not legitimate news stories. In fact I'll go further and call them irresponsible news stories.Obviously any and all events can be considered news. But unless it is a really slow news day, journalists and editors should be making decisions that accurately broadcast the nature of an event. That is set it into a context of local and world events as it stands to actually effect people's lives. Perhaps this is my own definition but that's what I'd call "legitimate news", as opposed to things like why a large percentage of people are upset with the latest American Idol contestant.In a similar vein, a relatively small number of people acting violently because of overreaction to a comment (by a guy in a dress as you put it) is simply not news. Your own complaints seem to back up that this isn't really news. Just as these people are not effected by what the pope says, you are not really effected by these people. But the media outlets have decided to feed on desires for such pictures.What's more it is irresponsible because they do not give equal coverage to the Islamic groups which are making statements against these actions, or demonstrating in peaceful ways. The cartoon fiasco was a great example. The vast majority either did not really care or demonstrated in very peaceful ways, and went on to criticize riots. But that was largely ignored by the media to focus on the relatively few scenes of rioting.And it is still more irresponsible because it actually empowers the radicals to do more. It shows that that is what gets noticed by media. If you are sick of hearing about it, maybe you should ask your media outlets to change focus to rational Islamic figures and activities. While anything is possible, I have my doubts. Call me crazy but I feel a guy that converts and 6 months later tries to kill people in the name of that religion likely had some screws loose before converting. Yes, a number of Xians felt 9/11 was a good thing. Essentially a sign from God, or punishment from God. That is not to mention a number of Israeli Jews who while not praising certainly emoted schadenfreud over the tragedy.It was somewhat of a scandal, when people noted that essentially put them on the same said as the terrorists, but did not end such idiocy. Robertson even went on to recommend that homegrown terrorists detonate a nuclear device (or some other bomb) at the state department.Perhaps it is your isolation from US media, but if you think Muslims crab about things too much, you have yet to experience evangelicals (though one would think you'd have gotten a taste here). I've "covered" or lived through book burnings, abortion clinic protests, movie protests, and lifestyle convention protests. I'd add nazi/kkk demonstrations but I realize that is not wholly religious in nature. Some of those I mentioned involved direct threats to people's lives. They go on whining all the time and have whole channels (radio and tv) dedicated to such crabbing.AbE: Not sure if you caught this link to a movie about Jesus Camp, but it gives a good taste of the Xian army that's building. I should also note, though I have seen one single muslim upset in amsterdam over the sex around where I live, Xian demonstrations are pretty frequent, and when I lived back in Chicago the only people screaming on street corners about how we're all going to hell were Xians.Edited by holmes, : link'n'moreEdited by holmes, : single

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Interesting point. I hadn't thought of it that way, and I don't think I disagree with the analysis. It is more "normal" to stick with tradition (i.e. indoctrination). I guess I'd rather call it rebellious, or freethinking, but uhm, you have a point.Thankfully I was not forced into the indoctrination you apparently were exposed to, but I knew many many who had gone through such things. I grew up and went to school in a highly evangelical area. Heheheh... me and my gf have a running theory that I suffer from a disorder/compulsion which forces me to explain things three times. Believe it or not some of those posts you see are "trimmed". But I'll try to cut a little wider in the future.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

That's all well and good and indeed I see the point you are trying to make, but it seems like you are talking past schraf. And more importantly it appears your point is lopsided.On the one hand we have a small % of muslims getting riled up over something stupid, likely the result of a mistaken impression about their position in the world. They do a little bit of damage and then boil up again when they feel needled again.On the other hand you have a large % of the US who believed and still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 or AQ or WMDs, all of which were lies (or in any case the same level of errancy of those muslims). They did not simply burn some effigies, they burnt down tens of thousands or real live innocent people, and plunged the region into further problems.On that same other hand you have a large % of Israelis who believe God granted them (as a religious group) control over a chunk of real estate such that they get to kick around anyone who is not Jewish. And while one can say they are equal opportunity bigots, the fact is that the people who are not allowed to return to their lands (the lands they actually owned) are Muslim, while Jews are allowed to take those lands and enjoy a "right of return" because of God's promise above. A much bigger lie I should say.That is not to mention the rather nontheoretical issue of what Israel and the US just did to Lebanon, using a continuing lie that militants within its borders posed an existential threat to Israel. Effigies were not burned, real live people were.So on the one hand you have a few radical leaders and a small % of extremist/ignorant muslims engaging in small level riots which don't amount to anything but noise over one set of lies, and on the other hand you have genuine mainstream populations and their elected leaders engaging in real devastation of innocent people over the same kinds of lies (if not more outrageous).I just don't see the point in getting all concerned about the former, I do about the latter, especially as it lends some credibility to the "lie" the former group holds. How about President Bush's claims that our civilization is under attack? How about the claims of evangelical Xians that there is a culture war going on and they are the target for elimination? I assume you'd agree that's also propaganda, but aren't those accepted and acted on by mainstream populations here much more so than the propganda you are criticizing?Edited by holmes, : typosEdited by holmes, : mo'

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Heheheh... who is "we" and who is "them"? Notice it cuts both ways. When they fight they rile us up, when they appease they embolden us.Heck, we are currently advancing a policy that allows only Israel to own nuclear power/weapons in the region... as if they are stable? So we demand the region appease Israel. Fight that and we get riled up, appease and Israel gains ground. Chavez is Islamic? Just kidding. I am unsure though what is wrong with foreign leaders being strong supporters for their own agendas at the UN. Its not like the US isn't. In fact the US is the largest user of its unilateral veto power to advance its interests over world consensus.While I'm not a big fan of either of the above leaders I don't see anything necessarily threatening to a superpower like the US. The original point of the UN was to aid smaller countries from being overrun by larger powers, it seems a bit strange to criticize the UN when it manages to achieve that from time to time.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Again you seem to be talking past schraf on this. It appears that she agrees that it is erroneous, the point is that it may be reasonable (aka understandable) that they have drawn that erroneous conclusion.Sort of like understanding that scientists long ago may very well have come up with a terracentric model of the universe by misreading evidence they had. It was totally erroneous but given their position, reasonable.In my earlier post I was trying to show the flipside. It is not reasonable for people in the US and Israel to be holding on to equally mistaken beliefs, and in their case are acting on those erroneous beliefs in a way that does more damage, real damage, which really does create an atmosphere for muslims to reasonably believe they are being persecuted.Its a vicious cycle, but we do have the vantage point difference and resources such that our error does not make sense.I might also raise the question what the practical difference is if they erroneously believe it is their religion which is the target, instead of it being their geopolitical or general social group?

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I guess I am assuming that those who are rioting do not have the same information. It is likely not complete, and perhaps biased.You may have a point regarding the above with regard to leaders, but I'm not sure it is the same with the larger mass of upset people. It seemed to me schraf was qualifying their assessment of Israel's motives, not the world's motives.On a side note: I just received some rather upsetting news, and it has some profound effect on my future. Real life stuff. I may not be able to post responses for a while. I'll try but I can't promise anything.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Thanks. I guess I am back already. Not exactly well, but with a survival plan that should keep me afloat for a bit. It relates to something I was discussing with berb earlier and for those that are interested here is a post sketching out what happened.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Heheheh (cough cough, hack up blood)... the problem is that I got a little too much resolution. It was totally against me and my gf. I created a post briefly explaining what happened and why I'm back quicker than I thought I would be.I guess this is to say I'm wounded, but not out of action. Thanks for your words of support, it actually does help me as I have a long battle ahead, after barely surviving a devastating surprise attack (a major tactical and morale loss). Well first of all I have a problem with the above. How did Johnny Israeli and Joe US get the idea that Israel and "our civilization" were under attack, and that Lebanon should be invaded because a terrorist org launched a limited strike against soldiers (kidnapping two)? That's what led to the massive loss of life in Lebanon.That such an obvious transgression of international law by national powers (Israel backed politically and militarily by the US) when terrorist attacks by Israelis on Palestinians and Lebanese do not meet with the same results (political and military) creates a very credible illusion that a double standard is in play. When both Israeli and US leaders discuss this in terms of clashes of civilizations, and prominent figures in both nations making statements against Islam without direct rebuke from the leaders, that really does look bad.In any case, the question was about the general feeling they get which does not have to rely on any particular case, but the buildup of actions. If the practical result is Islamic countries keep getting the shaft and seeing themselves portrayed badly, no matter what other political reality underlies it, they are likely to see a common theme.I guess this is to say they are finding what is common to them all, just as the US and Israeli populations find what is common to them and claim that is what is under attack, rather than looking at what political realities underlie Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Afghanistan.And I think the general masses in the mideast have poorer information networks. That is they are more prone to the "telephone" effect. How many do you think actually heard what the pope said, or had some real access to it? They likely heard something from someone and believed it. In fact they may have read it as well from bad sources, just like Joe US gets his news from Fox.I totally agree they are wrong. I think your point is well made that to suggest Islam is under attack is to miss everything actually in play. I just think that schraf has a point (if I am understanding it) that the average person in depressed mideast nations are unlikely to have access to proper information on, much less correct understandings of, the intricate geopolitical situation they are in and so get a "feeling" based on more superficial analysis of regional events.That is of course assuming that those that riot are the average, which you and I likely disagree on (I think they are a minority). And it is to skip over the portion which may very well have the info, but are spinning it to gain an advantaged (the leadership).Edited by holmes, : forgot to say thank you.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Agreed, though I'd chalk it up to the same level of ignorance enjoyed by the vast majority of Americans who actually believed Iraq had something to do with 9/11, or at least the smaller percentage of Americans (unfortunately some who are high profile and connected to the Bush administration) who claim that ours is a war against Islam and its false god.Of course at that point one is forced to ask if their beliefs are justified or understandable. I mean we can understand and ignorant person coming to an ignorant conclusion, but its not easily understood why a person would actually choose to remain ignorant if they don't have to be.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Wait a sec, don't they complain when that same guy addresses atheism, abortion, homosexuality, and science? Maybe not in the same way but they crab about it.

---

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)