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Author Topic:   The Religious Nature of Evolution, or Lack Thereof
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 136 of 212 (111759)
05-31-2004 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by almeyda
05-31-2004 7:38 AM


People want God out the picture so they can then live the way they want to live.
Says you, but once again, the data shows that it's Christians that commit crimes and atheists who, largely, don't.
Evolutionary theories will always continually change.
Not so surprisingly, that's true of all scientific knowledge.
Creation scientist are like the alternative media.
Yeah, the alternative to sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by almeyda, posted 05-31-2004 7:38 AM almeyda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by DarkStar, posted 06-07-2004 2:10 AM crashfrog has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 137 of 212 (111769)
05-31-2004 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by almeyda
05-31-2004 7:38 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
Evolution is accepted because it explains God away and the need of a deity.
Sorry, repeating a lie doesn't make it true. Evolution is accepted because it is the best theory that fits the evidence.
People want God out the picture so they can then live the way they want to live.
Obviously not true, given the number of Christians who accept evolution.
This message has been edited by JonF, 05-31-2004 08:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by almeyda, posted 05-31-2004 7:38 AM almeyda has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 138 of 212 (111771)
05-31-2004 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by almeyda
05-31-2004 7:38 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
almeyda
People want God out the picture so they can then live the way they want to live.
Why would you believe that? People live the way they want to live in a democracy because people should be allowed the freedom to do what they want within the agreed limitations of society as a whole.If I want to eat pork or ski on sunday or not pay homage to the sun god Ra that is rightfully my choice as long as I do not demand that others follow me because I feel I am right.
You have the right under the laws of the land to worship whatever deity you wish. You do not have the right to demand that the rest of the world do so. I am an atheist for many reasons that have nothing at all to do with the fact that evolution exists.
The only way to rid the world of this so called alternative is to rid the world of it.This includes christian influence on society, and society being heavily influenced upon secular views. Which by nature eventually win. To win the battle of course society from an early age must be indoctrinated into athiestic evolutionary philosophy (Evolution taught in schools, media, and anything mainstream). And making sure those who educate them have passed through the same indoctrination process.
People are not indoctrinated into atheism through the teaching of evolution. Evolution simply describes what we see happening in the real world. If you have a problem with that and you are christian take it up with your god.Philosophy has nothing to do with evolution being the way the natural world operates.Of course,it must influence the way in which people view the world and if peoples views are inconsistent with how the world operates that is becuase their view is somehow incomplete.
We must teach science the way we do because that is how we progress in our knowledge and understanding of the world. Modern medicine and all the medications we have that alleviate suffering and allow for better lives is a result of our understanding of evolution. The fact that we have anti-bacterial resistant strains is a result of our not paying attention to evoltionary facts in the general population at large.Now we are faced with huge threats from these resistant strains and in order to defend our selves from these we must use the same understanding of evolutionary processes in oder to combat them.
What was fact in the past now is discarded by evolutionists themselves.
It was not the facts that changed but,rather,our models of those facts. This is perfectly correct since as we gain more information and study more diligently we necessarily gain better understanding that allow us to constuct better models of how the world operates.This is only a problem if you insist on the world conforming to your beliefs rather than listening to what the world itself has to say about it.
Creation scientist are like the alternative media. Kinda like whatreallyhappened.com, telling you the real truth of origins. This creation propaganda must be stoped! the humanist yell.
That is simply a false statement.Creation science falls under the weight of its own inability to explain because it does not explain but rather staes simply that God Did It!
Let me give you examples.Find for me,if you can,the creationist explanation of Heisenburgs uncertainty principle.Or the Pauli exclusion principle.How about the second law of thermodynamics.
These have far moreserious consequences for the view that the world was created than the thoery of evolution.Let me know when you find their equivalents in creation science would you?

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by almeyda, posted 05-31-2004 7:38 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by almeyda, posted 06-01-2004 3:23 AM sidelined has replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 212 (111968)
06-01-2004 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by sidelined
05-31-2004 9:40 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
quote:
I am an atheist for many reasons that have nothing at all to do with the fact that evolution exists.
God does not exist because you believe in evolution. See, its like humanism. No deity will save us. Man is a product of biological evolution. What if evolution never ever was invented. Creation would be taught in schools. And there would be no way to escape Gods judgement on sin unless willingly rejecting the truth. However if evolution is true. You can back up your claims of no God with your ideaology about what happened in the
beginning.
quote:
It was not the facts that changed but,rather,our models of those facts
hmm so your theories changed right?. Your hypothesis. No dramatic advancement as such but more well that didnt work so we will try this. You know just about everything at the scopes trial has now been discarded by evolutionists. And that was the best evidence they had, it won evolution into the schools. But now what 70 or so yrs later we look back and well evolutionists no longer believe just about everything that they said. What does this say to you about fallible mans theories?. Evolution is a hopeless futile quest for nothing. Absolutely nothing, but it is the only theory that can explain the world without creation. Creation is nothing more than getting pushed away from society not because of the evidence but because the implications of it being true. God does exists we must listen to the Bible. He owns all, made all, and will judge all. What man in their right mind would want to live under Gods holy rules?. What a boring life that is dont you think?. Oh well. I wonder whos going to get the last say in this matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by sidelined, posted 05-31-2004 9:40 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Unseul, posted 06-01-2004 5:14 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 141 by mark24, posted 06-01-2004 7:49 AM almeyda has replied
 Message 142 by sidelined, posted 06-01-2004 9:00 AM almeyda has not replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 212 (111975)
06-01-2004 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by almeyda
06-01-2004 3:23 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
If evolution was never thought about (dont like the word invented). I still doubt christian creation would be taught in all schools, there would be uproar, wheres the evidence that its creation is the correct one.
There are many people out there who believe in god, and also think that evolution occured. How do you consider these people? Evolution does not remove god, hell even i can make god fit in with evolution no probs (doesnt mean i believe).
There is no evidence of creation, the best way it can fit in is using the classic god of the gaps analogy, at the moment the most disputed parts of our existence are abiogenesis and the beginning of the universe. So at the moment god can have these, until they slowly get worked out. Evolution doesnt make me an atheist, however i wont deny it doesnt make it easier, it means im not just going from one unknown thing to another, this way im going from God did it, to heres a possible scientific way that it happened, a little more knowledge gained. But knowledge of evolution didnt make me an atheist.

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
Do unto others before they do unto you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by almeyda, posted 06-01-2004 3:23 AM almeyda has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5185 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 141 of 212 (111997)
06-01-2004 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by almeyda
06-01-2004 3:23 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
Almeyda,
God does not exist because you believe in evolution.
Just because you've welded yourself to a scientifically contradicted literal interpretation of an organised religion doesn't mean everyone has to have the same intellectual accident as you.
See, its like humanism.
If humanism is religion, & humanists "believe" in the current atomic theory, does that make the belief in atoms religious?
No deity will save us.
You said it!
What if evolution never ever was invented. Creation would be taught in schools.
Until there was an evidence based theory rather than a notion based on blind faith, it was.
hmm so your theories changed right?
Almeyda, you have to be one of the most deliberately inconsistent pig-ignorant creationists out there, & the evo's here know that's saying something. ALL SCIENCTIFIC THEORIES ARE OPEN TO REVISION. Jesus Christ, are you that THICK?
Take atomic theory, from it's origins in ancient Greece through the plum pudding theory of the nineteenth century, to the standard model, & finally quantum physics. Are you seriously telling me that you reject the notion that atoms are made of electrons, neutrons & protons, & the electrons are quantised regarding their energy levels? If the answer is "no", then you are a hypocrite of the worst kind. You hold something you disagree with to a different standard than something you do. Not a good intellectual place to be. But then you're a creationist, so I suppose you're used to it.
You know just about everything at the scopes trial has now been discarded by evolutionists.
No, I don't. Cite please.
Creation is nothing more than getting pushed away from society not because of the evidence but because the implications of it being true.
Nope, creationism HAS been rejected BECAUSE of the evidence, nothing more. It is directly contradicted by multiple lines of evidence from multiple disciplines. These findings cannot be interpreted either way, they CONTRADICT a literal reading of Genesis.
You are simply engaging in projection, assuming your opponents reject things because they simply don't want them to be true, as you do yourself. Atheists/evo's require evidence in support of what they accept. I am afraid something that is not only evidentially unsupported, but directly contradicted isnot going to cut the mustard with anyone except the religious.
God does exists we must listen to the Bible. He owns all, made all, and will judge all. What man in their right mind would want to live under Gods holy rules?. What a boring life that is dont you think?. Oh well. I wonder whos going to get the last say in this matter.
Are you finished preaching?
If God's "holy rules" involves no sex before marriage, then it is much more exciting breaking his alleged rules than following them. Unless you find sex boring, of course.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by almeyda, posted 06-01-2004 3:23 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by almeyda, posted 06-02-2004 5:22 AM mark24 has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 142 of 212 (112007)
06-01-2004 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by almeyda
06-01-2004 3:23 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
almeyda
LOL you are a tough nut I will give you that.I fully appreciate that you relate to the idea of a God and the warmth that ensues from imagining that you are special. And that after the long run of what may or may not be a hard life you shall at last recieve a chance to bask in that warmth, all your sacrifices rewarded.That is fine for you, I wish you well.
However,there are those among us who have faced the abyss of life and stared long and hard into it and,for myself, came away convinced of quite the opposite. I cannot share in your conviction and that is the choice I make.Perhaps I have just witnessed one too many horrors that I could not resolve into the framework you believe.Regardless I shall not offer more of my time to you nor shall I try to place offerings of help to clarify what are distinctly muddy waters that you trudge through.Take care.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-01-2004 05:58 PM

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. "

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by almeyda, posted 06-01-2004 3:23 AM almeyda has not replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 212 (112333)
06-02-2004 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by mark24
06-01-2004 7:49 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
quote:
You know just about everything at the scopes trial has now been discarded by evolutionists.
No, I don't. Cite please.
Useless appendix, vestigal organs (at the time of the scopes trial they actually stated that 180 parts were vestigal structures)
Horse evolution (promoted as major/serious evidence of evolution)
Piltdown man
Neandethal man
Embryonic recapitulation, Haekels fraud etc.
Its no different today. Today theres Lucy and all these other evidences that will soon be discarded just as all these were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by mark24, posted 06-01-2004 7:49 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by mark24, posted 06-02-2004 5:58 AM almeyda has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5185 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 144 of 212 (112337)
06-02-2004 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by almeyda
06-02-2004 5:22 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
Almeyda,
Useless appendix, vestigal organs (at the time of the scopes trial they actually stated that 180 parts were vestigal structures)
They are vestigial. Vestigial doesn't = functionless.
Horse evolution (promoted as major/serious evidence of evolution)
It is. Why do you think it isn't?
Piltdown man
Granted.
Neandethal man
?
Embryonic recapitulation, Haekels fraud etc.
Embryonic recapitulation does occur. That's why baleen whale embryos have teeth, the toothless anteater embryo has teeth, human embryos have tails, whale embryos have hind legs when in reality they don't even have hind fins as adults.
Haekel may have sexed up his drawings, but phylogeny can be seen ontogenetically.
Its no different today. Today theres Lucy and all these other evidences that will soon be discarded just as all these were.
A triumph of wishful thinking over reality.
The basic evidence that led people to conclude evolution occurred is as true today as it was then.
But it's neither here nor there, really. I understand that all scientific theories are open to revision, & you hypocritically accept some theories that have been revised over & over, but reject evolution because it has had the same done to it. By way of illustration: do you accept or reject atomic theory as atoms being made of a nucleus, consisting of protons & neutrons, surrounded by energetically quantised electrons, making any given atom mostly empty space?
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 06-02-2004 05:13 AM
This message has been edited by mark24, 06-02-2004 05:15 AM
This message has been edited by mark24, 06-02-2004 10:05 AM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by almeyda, posted 06-02-2004 5:22 AM almeyda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Parasomnium, posted 06-02-2004 6:11 AM mark24 has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 145 of 212 (112338)
06-02-2004 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by mark24
06-02-2004 5:58 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
Mark, you may want to edit the penultimate sentence of your post to reflect that it's a quote.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by mark24, posted 06-02-2004 5:58 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5185 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 146 of 212 (112339)
06-02-2004 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Parasomnium
06-02-2004 6:11 AM


Re: IRe: almeyda
oop, ty for the heads up

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Parasomnium, posted 06-02-2004 6:11 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 212 (112858)
06-04-2004 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by nator
05-30-2004 9:25 AM


Re: Evolution a Religion?
Many thanks Schrafinator!
I truly appreciate the time and effort taken for your response.
Cheers
p.s. Now if I can only get a creationist to reciprocate in like manner to the request as stated in post #114
This message has been edited by DarkStar, 06-04-2004 08:29 PM

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by nator, posted 05-30-2004 9:25 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by nator, posted 06-05-2004 9:45 PM DarkStar has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 212 (112976)
06-05-2004 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by DarkStar
06-04-2004 9:10 PM


Re: Evolution a Religion?
You are most welcome, DS!
That incredibly useful website has been in my favorites for years and has been extremely useful.
Hey, AdminSomebody, maybe you's like it for the Forum's resources page?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by DarkStar, posted 06-04-2004 9:10 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
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DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 212 (113065)
06-06-2004 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by nator
06-05-2004 9:45 PM


Re: Evolution a Religion?

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by nator, posted 06-05-2004 9:45 PM nator has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 212 (113139)
06-07-2004 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by crashfrog
05-31-2004 7:43 AM


crashfrog says "Says you, but once again, the data shows that it's Christians that commit crimes and atheists who, largely, don't."
Not quite sure where you get your information but my study of history brings me to the opposite conclusion. The crusaders, marching under the banner of the cross, slaughtered innocents by the tens of thousands. Stalin, a naturalist, slaughtered millions. Hitler and the nazis, avowed evolutionists, also slaughtered millions. And yet one could hardly argue that the crusaders epitomized the virtues of christ, Stalin epitomized the virtues of naturalism, or Hitler epitomized the virtues of the theory of evolution.
Claiming a title and then behaving in a manner completely contradicting that claim does not in any way make the claim valid. I have never met a christian mass murderer. Why? Because they don't exist, that is an oxymoron. I have never met a yec evolutionist. Why? Because they don't exist, that is an oxymoron.
So the next time you read somewhere that it's christians that commit crimes and atheists who don't, consider the source, and the utter stupidity and ignorance of the persons from which the information originated. Anyone can put on a label but that doesn't make the label true.
If it did, I could label myself as god, condemn you to immediate and eternal hellfire, thereby prohibiting you from even responding to this post. Simply labeling myself as god doesn't make it so, but maybe I am wrong and right now you are tumbling into the eternal abyss of hellfire. If I don't hear from you I will know that I am the almighty god that christians keep preaching about, but something tells me that aint' gonna happen and your reply is forthcoming.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by crashfrog, posted 05-31-2004 7:43 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by crashfrog, posted 06-07-2004 2:23 AM DarkStar has replied

  
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