Universe Race

Thanks cavediver,I understand what it would take for it to revert back.I was asking how much gravitational pull it took in the beginning to hold everything in that small space.Or is there another solution?What held all this energy together under the extreme pressure it had to be under.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Au contraire mon ami antipodian A model of reality incorporating GR and QFT has the ants as mere excitations/ripples in the balloon skin - though the skin is now multi-layer

Yeah, and good luck trying to get the public to swallow that model

Well, it didn't really "hold together," now did it. It expanded, literally for all of time.

Public? Piece of cake - I once tried to explain it to Buz and I was naive enough to think he'd go for it... I've learnt my lesson with ICANT and Buz. If someone is hostile to an idea, then you cannot explain the idea via analogy, as they will simply attack the analogy. When the idea is advanced cosmology, that doesn't leave much to work with. There comes a point where you have to simply shrug and admit that there is no point trying to educate the unwilling, when there is world of folk out there who are desperate to learn.

Just as a word of encouragement, I learn a great deal from your exchanges with ICANT and Buz and others. You and others in various fields frequently answer questions I hadn't even thought to ask when trying to explain things to them.I think I have a halfway decent grasp for a layperson, but being able to actually talk to physics professors who have taught Big bang cosmology, or actual biologists who deal with evolution's predictions and consequences on a daily basis, is incredibly educational for me. It's half the reason I come to this site.So, you know...thanks.

Hi Rahvin, My question was: "I was asking how much gravitational pull it took in the beginning to hold everything in that small space."With no answer from the experts I will try to answer my own question.It would take an infinite gravitational field.Since this pea sized object with its infinite gravitational field prior to the Big Bang would be trillions, and trillions of times more massive in volume than any of the known black holes (all of them were there also they are part of the universe) from which nothing can escape not even light.Would you like to explain how the universe was able to escape from this infinite gravitational field?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The Universe is not some object that is attracted by gravity! The Universe is the entire space-time within which what you think of gravity is the perceived effect on small bodies (planets, stars, galaxies) casued by small-scale local curvature of the Universe.At this early time, there were no isolated clumps of matter - there was just an almost perfectly smooth distribution of energy across the Universe. In terms of simple gravity, there is nothing to attract and nothing to cause attraction, as there is nothing but continuous, uniform energy. We see almost perfect evidence of this situation in the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR). The physics of space-time (General Relativity) shows us that when we have this situation, although there is no local 'gravitation', the entire space of the Universe will be expanding or contracting with respect to time. In the early Universe, space is expanding.You cannot understand the early Universe by thinking of classical Newtonian pictures of gravity. They have little to no relevance.

Thanks Rahvin, that does help

Noone knows. Experts are not all knowing. There are limits to our knowledge.The more important point is I can already see you inserting god in this gap already. Go ahead. Noone will stop you.Added by edit.Is there really a point to asking questions you know noone could answer other than to look for a place to insert your god of the gaps?Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

It wasn't held - that part of the point. Remember, gravity is actually a very weak force compared to the others, like electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.The real problem here is that we don't currently have a model to describe the conditions of the Unvierse in the opening moment of the Bang. The math breaks down, and matter didn't exist in the form we see it today. The answe to your question is "We don't really know enough about the conditions of the Universe at that point to say that gravity as we see it even existed yet." Before the quark/gluon plasma that immediately preceded the formation of baryonic matter, we really don't know much at all.Aside from that, if the expansion of space exceeded the escape velocity for each of the small particles, gravity would have been a non-issue. The current model as I understand it includes an exponential acceleration in expansion over that barest fractiopn of a second, followed by the expansion slowing down to something mroe like the rate we see today (though slower - the current model is also that the expansion is currently accellerating). You mean no answer that you like."Infnite" is awfully hard to acheive. In fact, it shouldn't be possible to achieve an infinite gravitational field. This is part of the reason we have a singularity at T=0 - the math and current models simply break down, and we're forced to say "we don't know." Now that is quite a jumble of misused terms. Gravitational fields don't have "volume" for example. And again, "prior to the Big Bang" is not a phrase that makes sense, as the Big bang describes the expansion of the Universe, which has been occurring for literally all of time. You do know that things do eventually escape from black holes, don't you? It's called Hawking Radiation - it's small, but once they stop consuming new matter, even black holes eventually decay. The smaller the black hole, the more rapid the "evaporation."So since we know it wasn't an infinitely strong gravitational field, and we know that things eventually do escape even black holes, and since we do know that the Universe existed in a much smaller and more dense state than we see today, and we do know that it did expand...your suggestion doesn't make much sense.

Just a nitpick. Things don't "escape" from a black hole in the sense that we tend to think of when we think of "escape".

If you can think of a better word to use, feel free to suggest it. I don't want to promote any more misunderstandings on ICANTs part, because we all know he just loves to latch on to those and ignore the rest, but it's the only one that came to mind.

Hi onifre, welcome to EvC Since matter and energy can not be created, I assume you are referring to energy being converted into matter.So you have not eliminated the necessity for everything you see and everything you don't see in the universe being present at inception.
It would just be in a different form.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks Taz, Sorry to dissapoint you Taz.I am not discussing the origin of this pea sized universe.That would be when I would get to the God thing.Right now my thirst is in my mind and I can't find the answers to these very important questions.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."