Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,581 Year: 2,838/9,624 Month: 683/1,588 Week: 89/229 Day: 61/28 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 271 of 759 (652925)
02-16-2012 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Rahvin
02-16-2012 5:58 PM


Rahvin writes:
Gay rights are no different. It;s not unexpected (to the rationally-minded person) that courts should rant the first victories to gays, while public support remains lower. It is expected however, and shown in trending data, that public support for gay rights will improve over time in the wake of those legal victories.
I don't agree with this. The gay rights movement has been in existence for as long as anyone can remember. And it's still politically correct to say gays be gone.
I am reminded of a documentary I saw a couple years ago. It was about gay rights in Europe. They interviewed a holocaust survivor who lost his partner in a death camp. He said that after the war, people of every minority group slowly but surely gained their rights. And then he broke down in tears and said but somehow the homosexuals got left behind.
Remember that in this particular case the bigots got god on their side. Nothing will change until either god changes his mind or we kill him off.
Remember the phrase segregation before, segregation now, segregation forever? I'm paraphrasing here. Remember how quickly it became NOT OK to say something like that?
This is the 21st century. Just a month ago, republican candidates got huge rounds of applauds for saying they want the gheys to go back into the closet.
You guys can fantasize all you want. Reality isn't as pretty as you make it out to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Rahvin, posted 02-16-2012 5:58 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2012 7:45 AM Taz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 272 of 759 (653009)
02-17-2012 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Taz
02-16-2012 5:37 PM


All of the mentioned rights gained are useless if the societal attitude remains the same.
No, come on, that's stupid. Obviously legal rights are a pretty substantial tool to be deployed against society's disapproval. Maybe it's true that the local hospital nurses think homosexuality is a perversion. But armed with a legal marriage, they can't stop you from visiting your sick partner or making treatment decisions on his or her behalf.
Maybe your military commander thinks having a "fag" in the unit weakens the whole. But armed with the right of openly gay servicemembers to serve, he can't do anything but judge your performance as a soldier on its own merits.
Santorum can bluster as much as he like, and can shout "fag" until they stomp the floor, but armed with the legal rights gains that we've seen just in the past 5-10 years, it doesn't fucking matter. He can't do anything about it.
That's why legal rights are a hell of a lot more important than "societal attitudes" - they're more powerful. People can have all the bad attitudes they want; armed with a protective suite of legal rights, there's fuck-all they can do about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 5:37 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by subbie, posted 02-17-2012 11:50 AM crashfrog has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 273 of 759 (653016)
02-17-2012 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by crashfrog
02-17-2012 11:27 AM


Surely that's as much an oversimplification as Taz's point.
If what you say were true there'd be no more racial discrimination in society, and I know you don't believe that.
Court recognized rights are very important. They lead to societal change and acceptance. But there aren't enough courts in the world to handle all the discrimination cases that arise if society doesn't change as well.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by crashfrog, posted 02-17-2012 11:27 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by crashfrog, posted 02-17-2012 12:30 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(3)
Message 274 of 759 (653022)
02-17-2012 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by subbie
02-17-2012 11:50 AM


If what you say were true there'd be no more racial discrimination in society, and I know you don't believe that.
You're right, I don't.
But there's less, and that's the result of strong legal protections for racial minorities - both in terms of how those legal protections insulate individuals from being affected society's prejudice to some extent, and the shift in attitudes that comes as a result of top-down signaling that "this is how we are, now."
I just don't agree that the primary project of any equality movement is about mind-controlling society to give up bad attitudes. That can't be the goal because that's impossible. And ultimately, other people's attitudes about you are a lot less important than what kind of power you can avail yourself of - financial power, legal power, military power all outweigh social power.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by subbie, posted 02-17-2012 11:50 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Taz, posted 02-17-2012 7:43 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 275 of 759 (653069)
02-17-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by crashfrog
02-17-2012 12:30 PM


Um, look up Tyra Hunter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by crashfrog, posted 02-17-2012 12:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by crashfrog, posted 02-17-2012 7:48 PM Taz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 276 of 759 (653070)
02-17-2012 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Taz
02-17-2012 7:43 PM


Um, no. I have enough of my own homework; I don't need to do yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Taz, posted 02-17-2012 7:43 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Taz, posted 02-17-2012 10:35 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 277 of 759 (653091)
02-17-2012 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by crashfrog
02-17-2012 7:48 PM


crashfrog writes:
Um, no. I have enough of my own homework; I don't need to do yours.
Tyra Hunter was a trans woman that was involved in a crash in DC. When emergency crew discovered that she had male anatomy, they refused to help her. Finally, someone took pity on her and drove her to the hospital. She bled to death in the emergency room because the staff there refused to treat her.
This was in 1995. I'm pretty sure there were laws in place to prevent something like this from happening. And yet, it happened.
Laws don't mean jack shit if societal attitude still contradicts them.
I'm not saying the extreme that you think I'm saying. I'm not saying societal attitude is all there is to it. Sure, we need to change the law. I'm saying it takes a combination of both for this to work. The law is changing at an expected rate, but the change in societal attitude is slow to a crawl.
I blame this on you guys, the liberal commie political correctness police crowd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by crashfrog, posted 02-17-2012 7:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2012 12:38 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 286 by crashfrog, posted 02-18-2012 6:50 PM Taz has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 759 (653100)
02-18-2012 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Taz
02-17-2012 10:35 PM


The law is changing at an expected rate, but the change in societal attitude is slow to a crawl.
Isn't this the way things have always worked? The law changes, and we can address situations like Tyra Hunter's using the law. But societal attitudes don't change until the dinosaurs having those attitudes finally die off. We still have politicians in power who believe that the civil rights act of 1964 should never have been enacted.
I blame this on you guys, the liberal commie political correctness police crowd.
Who are you talking about?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Taz, posted 02-17-2012 10:35 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Coyote, posted 02-18-2012 1:10 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 279 of 759 (653101)
02-18-2012 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by NoNukes
02-18-2012 12:38 AM


How memories fade...
But societal attitudes don't change until the dinosaurs having those attitudes finally die off. We still have politicians in power who believe that the civil rights act of 1964 should never have been enacted.
You are correct about the dinosaurs.
One of those dinosaurs who opposed the Civil Rights Act died off not too many years ago.
Few people now remember that the longest filibuster against the 1964 act was conducted by Senator Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.), who personally spoke against the legislation for 14 hours and 13 minutes on June 9 & 10, 1964.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2012 12:38 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2012 2:13 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 280 of 759 (653102)
02-18-2012 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Coyote
02-18-2012 1:10 AM


Re: How memories fade...
Are you trying to make some sort of point?
Do you know anything about the Southern Democratic Party?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Coyote, posted 02-18-2012 1:10 AM Coyote has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 281 of 759 (653110)
02-18-2012 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Taz
02-16-2012 9:06 PM


. And it's still politically correct to say gays be gone.
Apparently the word politically correct is so malleable as to no longer have any meaning at all.
In most circles, people who say gays begone are considered to be scum. We know fully well that those people who say that kind of crap, have gay family members just like everyone else does, and are thus condemning their own kin. I completely deny that such a thing is politically correct among the people I know.
Using your definition of politically correct, it is apparently still politically correct to racially profile Hispanics as long as illegal immigration is being fought, to circulate pictures of Obama on fake food stamps that include pictures of watermelon and fried chicken, to protest Muslim churches even if they are built a thousand miles away from "ground zero", simply because some prominent @#%$&*! still do those things.
Remember the phrase segregation before, segregation now, segregation forever? I'm paraphrasing here. Remember how quickly it became NOT OK to say something like that?
Buzsaw says stuff like that all the time.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 9:06 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Taz, posted 02-18-2012 1:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 282 of 759 (653134)
02-18-2012 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by NoNukes
02-18-2012 7:45 AM


nonukes writes:
In most circles, people who say gays begone are considered to be scum. We know fully well that those people who say that kind of crap, have gay family members just like everyone else does, and are thus condemning their own kin. I completely deny that such a thing is politically correct among the people I know.
Haven't you been watching the republican debates? Every time a candidate says something even remotely close to gays be gone they got a huge round of applauds. When asked about DADT they'd say they want the gheys back in the closet and the crowd went wild. Remember that this is all on national tv.
I say I blame our current situation on the liberal commie political correctness crowd because every time someone says something that are against gay people but in a harsh language they'd get yelled down. This has made the bigots to choose their words far more wisely. They're still saying the same thing, just different choice of words. Things don't change until all hell breaks loose.
Take the current republican candidates, for example. They all support reinstituting DADT in the military. But wait, service men and women have already come out. This is the same as saying get the hell out of the military, you faggots.
See, I'd rather they just come out and say it so the whole world can see their true colors. But no, every time a bigot use the wrong words, you shout him down and tell him how to say the same thing with better choice of words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2012 7:45 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2012 3:48 PM Taz has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 759 (653146)
02-18-2012 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Taz
02-18-2012 1:04 PM


Haven't you been watching the republican debates? Every time a candidate says something even remotely close to gays be gone they got a huge round of applauds. When asked about DADT they'd say they want the gheys back in the closet and the crowd went wild. Remember that this is all on national tv.
Do you think this is some kind of rebuttal? Those candidates are scum, and I don't think all that much of the audience either. Audiences have similarly applauded the idea that poor sick people should just die off rather than having access to health care.
What I really don't understand is how any of that is the fault of liberal commies who oppose those Republican candidates on nearly every issue. That idea just does not make sense to me at all. With the exception of the usual suspects, I cannot think of anyone on this board who has expressed anything but condemnation for DADT.
Edited by NoNukes, : Add more snark.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Taz, posted 02-18-2012 1:04 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Taz, posted 02-19-2012 12:09 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4219 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 284 of 759 (653162)
02-18-2012 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by subbie
02-15-2012 11:14 AM


can you stay on topic in this thread.
yeah I thought not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by subbie, posted 02-15-2012 11:14 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by subbie, posted 02-18-2012 6:59 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4219 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 285 of 759 (653163)
02-18-2012 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Taz
02-16-2012 5:37 PM


and you wonder why?
look at how y'all talk about the opposition, do you want to change hearts and minds or just tell people what to do? (the answer is obvious from reading this thread)
I know I know you are right about everything and those who disagree are morons. nothing new same old liberals.
nonukes writes:
We still have politicians in power who believe that the civil rights act of 1964 should never have been enacted.
well it is not constitutional as much as it is politically correct. The 1964 Act is significant because it marks a time were feel-good politically correct policies begin to outweigh the constitution, and no one cares. It is a catch 22, because in defending the constitution one becomes a racist. so what is more important, doing the right thing, or not being called names?
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 5:37 PM Taz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024