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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Again, all you have there is unsupported assertions from a biased source. Of course it's from a biased source. There is no other kind of source. But the biggest joke is that you consider yourself the only valid source anyway:
Western Civilization was developed by Greeks worshiping the Olympians, by Romans worshiping the Pantheon, by Roman Catholics and Protestants and Muslims and Jews, by atheists and agnostics and deists and pantheists and Wiccans and Druids. Unevidenced assertion, pure jar-originated Political Correctness.
I am an honest onlooker and that is why I can make such a claim. To claim otherwise is at best, to lie to oneself as well as others. Right, jar doesn't need to give evidence for anything he says, that's something that's only required of Christians, Creationists and Conservatives. Jar only needs his own self-assessment as an "honest onlooker" to justify the wildest unsubstantiated assertions. The Pope of EvC? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This I agree with, even as an ex-Catholic. Works show your faith because they are examples of each individual living as Jesus instructed. This is why I do not agree that there is any ongoing culture war where the Catholic church is actively looking to reinstate the inquisition in this modern age, which is Faith's contention.
Rome isn't happy to have lost us, Tempe, Rome wants us back, or dead. But again this formula "Works show your faith because they are examples of each individual living as Jesus instructed" is a PROTESTANT belief, not a Catholic belief. We are the ones who believe that works FOLLOW faith, Catholicism teaches that works are needed FOR salvation. Or perhaps you are saying you are justified by works plus faith AND works follow faith. Well, that would be a true statement of Catholic belief. But the discussion has been about salvation, and the Protestant view of salvation is FAITH ALONE, and then works are the proof of it and if you are saying anything similar to that you are yourself under the anathemas of Rome:
Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema. Canon 11.If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema. Canon 12.If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Are you denying that Western Civilization was developed by Greeks worshiping the Olympians, by Romans worshiping the Pantheon, by Roman Catholics and Protestants and Muslims and Jews, by atheists and agnostics and deists and pantheists and Wiccans and Druids?
Have you ever heard of Euclid, Aristotle, Abū ʿAbdallāh Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī, Georges Lematre, Hans Bethe?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith writes: Also, you might be interested to know that there is reason to believe Jesuits started the Civil War. Lincoln believed this, as I think he was quoted saying at the link I gave a while back ... Yeah, but the quotes were made up. Let me guess, it's because you too, like jar, are a Certificed Honest Onlooker that you know this to be the case, no evidence required, just the wild assertion and voila, hocus pocus abracadra, Truth has been Established.
Faith writes: Well, to clarify, I had read Fox's Book of Martyrs, I knew that Rome had persecuted and murdered many for refusing to accept her rule over them, but I had no idea the extent of it, especially the role of the Jesuits, or that there is good reason to see it persisting into the present, the same aims -- 1) destroy the Protestant Reformation, 2) recover rulership of the world once had through the Holy Roman Empire ... Y'see, when I read you writing something like that, I know that pretty much all your research must have involved reading books by morons. Morons who have literally no idea what the Holy Roman Empire was, but have apparently made a wild guess based on the name. Instead of looking it up. And again, you don't seem to need any evidence or even any information or any argument or any facts, you don't need to bother to read any of the sources I've listed of course, that would be beneath you. You need only the assertion on the basis of your status as EvC Debunker in Chief or something like that. It was called the Holy Roman Empire because all its rulers were under the rule of the Pope and it was considered to be a revival of THE Roman Empire only with the Popes in the place of Caesar. After the Protestant Reformation most of those nations became Protestant. The Third Reich was an attempt to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire, that's what the name refers to. They don't give up. I do understand that I need to get the evidence together better. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No, I'm denying that you personally are the arbiter of all truth.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Too funny.
Not is it totally irrelevant to the topic, it is a claim I never made. But are you denying that Western Civilization was developed by Greeks worshiping the Olympians, by Romans worshiping the Pantheon, by Roman Catholics and Protestants and Muslims and Jews, by atheists and agnostics and deists and pantheists and Wiccans and Druids?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Of course you don't need to know anything about Chiniquy yourself or read anything he wrote, you just somehow "know" he's got to be wrong the way so many others here seem to "know" the truth without bothering to study any of the evidence. so any old article debunking him -- who is Joseph George anyway? -- you'll take as gospel truth over anything I post from him or about him, just because all you care about is trashing him because he said something you disagree with, God knows why. You are arguing by innuendo and namecalling but that's fine because you're on the Right Side here.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Bible simply contradicts itself on this matter. Some parts say you just need faith and some parts say that you have to do works. The Bible does not ever contradict itself. It never ever says that works are needed FOR salvation, it ALWAYS says they are the FRUIT of salvation, which is NOT what Rome says.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
It was called the Holy Roman Empire because all its rulers were under the rule of the Pope and it was considered to be a revival of THE Roman Empire only with the Popes in the place of Caesar.
Are you really that simpleminded?The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, roman or an empire. It is a name nothing more. Do you know what North Korea's official name is? The Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Is it Democratic? No. A Republic? No. Are you making the claim that everything is what it name is? The Pope had no power over the HRE emperors. If he did, show a source please. The history of the HRE is one of constant conflict with the Popes. The HR Emperor was very weak and did not actually have any imperial powers. But we know that reality means nothing to you. Bathe in your ignorance if you want, but I will not let you spout blatant falsehoods like this without responding. Educate yourself.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You never have HONESTLY read the Bible have you Faith?
Of course there are contradictions in the Bible and of course Jesus himself says that works determine who gets damned or saved. But that is irrelevant to the topic and there are both Protestants and Roman Catholics that believe works are necessary.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Did you read the research into his claims?
No. Of course not. That would mean reading something contrary to your beliefs. Lord knows you can't do that. His claims do not stand up to scrutiny. Find one source that backs him up. Why does he not appear in the historical record when he claims he should? others here seem to "know" the truth without bothering to study any of the evidence.
I looked at the evidence, unlike you. The evidence does not support any of his fantastical claims.Seems you will believe anything you read that is anti-catholic. There is a skill called critical thinking. You do not seem to have this ability. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are incredibly naive if you think the fact that all those nations were CATHOLIC and all their rulers CATHOLIC who had all been officially CROWNED by the Popes and confessed their sins to Catholic Priests were not under the Popes. Of COURSE there were conflicts, so WHAT? And you're even more naive if you think Rome has quietly accepted the loss of all those Catholic nations to the Protestant Reformation, or that the Third Reich was not an attempt to put Europe under the Pope again, or that the European Union doesn't have papal delegates working hard to bring Europe under the Pope by THAT means even now.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You won't read Chiniquy I'm nlot going to waste my time on your stupid biased lying debunker.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
You are incredibly naive if you think the fact that all those nations were CATHOLIC and all their rulers CATHOLIC who had all been officially CROWNED by the Popes and confessed their sins to Catholic Priests were not under the Popes. Of COURSE there were conflicts, so WHAT? And you're even more naive if you think Rome has quietly accepted the loss of all those Catholic nations to the Protestant Reformation, or that the Third Reich was not an attempt to put Europe under the Pope again, or that the European Union doesn't have papal delegates working hard to bring Europe under the Pope by THAT means even now. And so folks we see how far down Loony Lane Faith is willing to go. I for one are done feeding this troll. When you are willing to make reasonable, non-crazy arguments I will be willing to attempt to debate you again. Until then maybe you should up your meds. ABEPhat do us all favor and close this thread that should have never been promoted in the first place. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I have NO interest in debating the likes of you EVER. Get lost.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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