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Author Topic:   Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 391 of 1000 (685567)
12-23-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by jar
12-23-2012 6:30 PM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Ha ha ha ha ha that's a RIOT. Indulgences = Capitalism! A scream!
I'm glad I asked. Best laugh of the day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by jar, posted 12-23-2012 6:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 12-23-2012 7:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 392 of 1000 (685571)
12-23-2012 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
12-23-2012 6:31 PM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Selling for profit is capitalism.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 6:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 393 of 1000 (685576)
12-23-2012 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
12-23-2012 5:48 PM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
The socialism goes back at least to Aquinas.
Actually, it goes all the way back to the Apostles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 5:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 7:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 394 of 1000 (685577)
12-23-2012 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2012 7:29 PM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Wow, everybody's a Catholic here. Amazing what you find out. Of course since they support evolution AND socialism that makes sense.
JAR already made the usual spurious point about the apostles, Dr. A., you're a bit late.
And of course you're both wrong. Voluntary sharing of possessions is not socialism which is the stealing of other people's possessions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2012 7:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2012 7:44 PM Faith has replied
 Message 396 by Theodoric, posted 12-23-2012 11:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 395 of 1000 (685579)
12-23-2012 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
12-23-2012 7:33 PM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Voluntary sharing of possessions is not socialism ...
Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, and a political philosophy advocating such a system. "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.
Socialism isn't defined by being involuntary any more than, for example, chastity is. One can simply choose to be chaste, or to join a socialist society.
... which is the stealing of other people's possessions.
You told a similar lie before, remember? It didn't end well.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 7:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 3:06 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9206
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 396 of 1000 (685583)
12-23-2012 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
12-23-2012 7:33 PM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Voluntary sharing of possessions is not socialism which is the stealing of other people's possessions.
Wow!!
Really Faith must be a Poe.
How can anyone be this clueless and still be able to turn on a computer.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 7:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 397 of 1000 (685589)
12-24-2012 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2012 7:44 PM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
You mean we don't HAVE to pay taxes to support welfare 'cause it's all VOLUNTARY?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2012 7:44 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2012 3:42 AM Faith has replied
 Message 409 by Theodoric, posted 12-24-2012 8:47 AM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 398 of 1000 (685590)
12-24-2012 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by Faith
12-24-2012 3:06 AM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
You mean we don't HAVE to pay taxes to support welfare 'cause it's all VOLUNTARY?
Of course that is not what I mean. That is why it bears no resemblance to anything that I've ever said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 3:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 5:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 399 of 1000 (685600)
12-24-2012 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Dr Adequate
12-24-2012 3:42 AM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Please address the point. VOLUNTARY means it is not forced and that we do not have to participate in the program if we choose not to. If we have to pay taxes then it is clearly not voluntary. This is simple logic and it's ridiculous to deny it.
That was not the situation in the early Jerusalem church (and none of the other churches as far as we know from the record) where they simply chose to share their possessions with each other and gave things away as well. THAT is VOLUNTARY sharing and giving, which anything REQUIRED by the government simply cannot be.
Just acknowledge it, it's simple logic.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2012 3:42 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2012 5:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 411 by jar, posted 12-24-2012 10:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 400 of 1000 (685604)
12-24-2012 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 399 by Faith
12-24-2012 5:34 AM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Please address the point.
I did. You asked me if I meant "we don't HAVE to pay taxes to support welfare 'cause it's all VOLUNTARY?" I replied "Of course that is not what I mean. That is why it bears no resemblance to anything that I've ever said." That would be addressing the point. Your question was whether the meaning of my statements was the crazy gibberish that you made up in your head. I replied in the negative. As that singularly retarded question was the whole of your post, there can be no point in that post that I have left unanswered.
VOLUNTARY means it is not forced and that we do not have to participate in the program if we choose not to. If we have to pay taxes then it is clearly not voluntary. This is simple logic and it's ridiculous to deny it.
This is why I have never denied it. You can tell that I have never denied it by the way that I have never denied it.
Well, you probably can't tell that. The proposition that X implies X may be a little over your head.
That was not the situation in the early Jerusalem church (and none of the other churches as far as we know from the record) where they simply chose to share their possessions with each other and gave things away as well. THAT is VOLUNTARY sharing and giving, which anything REQUIRED by the government simply cannot be.
For once in your life you are speaking the truth.
Do you have to do some sort of penance for that?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 5:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 6:25 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 401 of 1000 (685606)
12-24-2012 6:21 AM


Back to Protestantism and Capitalism
A few times here I've asserted in response to debunking derogatory remarks about Christianity that Protestantism is what built the West and is responsible for the great prosperity the West and particularly the US have been known for. So now I'll try to put up some evidence for that.
I'm slowly reading this book Ecclesiastical Megalomania by John W. Robbins, which presents some really interesting history about economic systems. Not a subject I'm normally interested in or good at but I'm plodding through it and learning.
In his Introduction he brings up Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism , published in 1904-5 which I haven't read but now would like to.
Weber argued that the obvious disparities in the economic development of European and American countries were due in part to their different theologies. Those countries whose economies had grown most rapidly were Protestant, and those whose economies had lagged behind were Roman catholic. Now the disparities that Weber noted were a commonplace of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries; Jacob Viner told us that no observed in the ninteenth century disputed that fact. [{footnote:}...There was almost universal agreement before Weber...that there was a close historical association between Protestantism and the development of capitalism in its modern forms. {Viner, "Religious Thought and Economic Society"...1978}]
He goes on to say that although Weber had been criticized for overstating the connection he himself thinks otherwise, that
Weber understated the linkage by narrowly limiting his discussion to the "Protestant ethic" and the "spirit" of capitalism... because of an inadequate understanding of Protestantism, specifically Calvinist theology.
...One of Weber's early critics, Felix Rachfahl, pointed out six ways in which Protestantism had fostered the economic growth of Europe:
(1) Protestantism permitted the intellect to be devoted to secular pursuits, not just religious;
(2) Protestantism brought education to the masses;
(3) Protestantism did not encourage indolence and distaste and disdain for labor as Roman Catholicism did;
(4) Protestantism championed independence and individual responsibility;
(5) Protestantism created a higher type of orality.
(6) Protestantism fostered the separation of church and state.
"In all these respects," Rachfal wrote, "Protestantism produced a liberating and stimulating effect upon economic life, but Catholicism a constricting and obstructive one."
Now, all this is new to me but apparently there is a body of literature in agreement with it. I'm sure this doesn't describe individual Catholics and Protestants in any case, at least in the US or the west in general, it's just a general trend that can be traced to the different theologies, and I have to say that I wish I had become a Christian a lot sooner and knew some of this a lot sooner because I have always been a very bad "Protestant" by these definitions, lazy, indolent, stupid about money, the works. And I know some very industrious and hardworking and sensible Catholics. So this is a generalization about the effect of the different theologies on whole societies at large.
He also quotes from an article, "Culture Change and the Rise of Protestantism in Brazil and Chile" by Emilio Willems in Eisenstadt, The Protestant Ethic and Moderniazation: A Comparative View 1968:
Our field data indicate that in many communities Protestants have gained the reputation among non-Protestants of being especially reliable conscientious and industrious. Numerous interviews with employers left no doubt that Protestant workers are especially sought after and even given advantages...Numberous Protestant assured us that their conversions, regularly described as 'rebirth' had let to economic improvement. The reason given was that prior to conversion they had spent a great deal of money on alcohol, lottery tickets, gambling, tobacco, cosmetics, movies and prostitution.;..
Goes with Catholicism's socialistic thinking too, which I'm going to try to document as well.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2012 6:37 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 402 of 1000 (685607)
12-24-2012 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Dr Adequate
12-24-2012 5:45 AM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
You seemed to be arguing with my contention that the early church's sharing was voluntary and socialism is not. That was MY point so I would assume that's what you meant to be addressing. If not then I don't see any point in trying to figure out what you are saying. I can't follow all your usual cryptic ways of defeating communication, so I'm not going to try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2012 5:45 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-24-2012 7:02 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 403 of 1000 (685609)
12-24-2012 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Faith
12-24-2012 6:21 AM


Re: Back to Protestantism and Capitalism
When you're done making stuff up about the relative work ethics of protestants and Catholics, perhaps you'll explain why it's China and India that are now the most industrious, with that famously Catholic nation Brazil, close behind?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 6:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 7:00 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 404 of 1000 (685610)
12-24-2012 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by Tangle
12-24-2012 6:37 AM


Why we're degenerating
When you're done making stuff up about the relative work ethics of protestants and Catholics, perhaps you'll explain why it's China and India that are now the most industrious, with that famously Catholic nation Brazil, close behind?
I guess you guys will say anything. "Making stuff up" with all the references i gave? And there's plenty more where those came from. Oh well, yes, you'll say anything.
Why are we degenerating and other nations on the rise? Because we've abandoned the principles that made us great, the very principles of Protestantism I'm now learning about, not just the economic principles but those too. Other countries are now imitating our past success while we've fallen prey to destructive anti-Christian influences.
To put it most succinctly. we're under God's judgment for our abandonment of His laws and principles, removing His gospel and His precepts from our schools and our public square, murdering our unborn by the tens of millions, abandoning His ordinances concerning marriage and procreation, which has led to social chaos of all sorts and grown the welfare society beyond our ability to pay for it, and above all giving idolatrous religions equal standing with Him which He condemns in His word, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
So what I'm writing about is our past glory even as we are in the very process of losing it completely. That includes Europe and the UK but the US is right now teetering on complete destruction. Perhaps we'll all go down together.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2012 6:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2012 7:20 AM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 405 of 1000 (685611)
12-24-2012 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Faith
12-24-2012 6:25 AM


Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
You seemed to be arguing with my contention that the early church's sharing was voluntary and socialism is not.
I did not argue with your contention that the early church's sharing was voluntary.
Socialism, on the other hand, can be voluntary or involuntary. This depends crucially on whether it is ... I hope you're sitting down for this ... voluntary or involuntary.
I can't follow all your usual cryptic ways of defeating communication ...
Please stop telling this lie. It degrades you and convinces no-one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 6:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 12-24-2012 7:10 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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