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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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You are going to go with the popular accounts anyway. Such as Sir Frederic George Kenyon, GBE, KCB, TD, FBA, FSA (15 January 1863 — 23 August 1952):
quote: Source Or Reverend Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener, LL.D.
quote: Source And of course Falconer Madan, Books in manuscript : a short introduction to their study and use. With a Chapter on Records, London 1898, p. 124. Your source?Some guy with a radio show and who makes films with a explicit agenda of chronicling ' the chief evidence of our time that proves the word of God is true, and that Jesus Christ is coming soon'. And maybe you rely on James Anson Farrer? Literary Forgeries (1907) , p 39 onwards
The accusation by Tischendorf was exposed as a lie. I'm not sure that is true, is it?
Why don't you read the whole newspaper exchange. The one where he claims that Tischendorf is essentially a buffoon because any paleographer could tell it was 19th Century? Why hasn't any paleographer said that in the last century, exactly? (Answer: Jesuits!)
quote: And remember when someone who knew Simonides came forward?
quote: Source for the last paragraph: Classical Victorians: Scholars, Scoundrels and Generals in Pursuit of Antiquity By Edmund Richardson. I found the preceding text in a more questionable setting And didn't someone once ask the pertinent question of why did he not write around the holes in the paper, but rather it had the appearance that the holes were through the writing? You know, if he was not trying to create a forgery.
He was no forger, people who should know recognized him as an expert paleographer. Such as? And why did he have the tools of a forger on him when arrested? Oh, because he liked the taste of iron. OK.
But it would take too long to muster all this. I put the time in, it was quite entertaining.
There really is a conspiracy that has the upper hand these days, but you'll never discover it. A secret Jesuit conspiracy, no less. Because: Chris Pinto, some guy. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Sorry, I missed that you said they belonged to him. I didn't know he claimed to possess gospel fragments. From the first half of the first century. You're really not interested?
But apparently he was exonerated of Tischendorf's charge, which I think was about the Shepherd of Hermas, by a reputable collector. If there's one thing less convincing than another, it's a vague statement containing the words "apparently" and "I think" made by a Young Earth Creationist.
But if he was that clever a forger that's what needs to be proved. What?
So he'd claim in public to have made Sinaiticus, why? To get back at Tischendorf? Yes. Whether he was lying or telling the truth, we can tell that he was getting back at Tischendorf. Look at the letter he wrote.
You have thus a short and clear account of the Codex Simonideios, which Professor Tischendorf, when at Sinai, contrived, I know not how, to carry away [...] Any person learned in paleography ought to be able to tell at once that it is a MS of the present age. You must permit me to express my sincere regret that, whilst the many valuable remains of antiquity in my possession are frequently attributed to my own hands, the one poor work of my youth is set down by a gentleman who enjoys a great reputation for learning as the earliest copy of the Sacred Scriptures. This is a deliberate attack on Tischendorf --- he's saying that Tischendorf is definitely a damn fool and a charlatan and implying that he may be some sort of thief. And you can tell from his snide tone that he's thoroughly enjoying himself. ("Kallinikos", meanwhile, describes Tischendorf as "That master and pupil of all guile and wickedness"! and attacks not only his attainments in paleography but his ability to read the Greek language.) We may then ask, of this man, Simonides, who was apparently lucky enough to find what may well be Matthew's own copy of Matthew, who was lucky enough to find what may be Homer's own copy of Homer --- was he also lucky enough that the one manuscript he did forge found its way, by the purest coincidence, into the hands of the one man whose reputation he particularly wished to destroy? If we are to believe him, then here's what happened. Having never even heard of Tischendorf, Simonides dug a pit with no malice in the world, with no inkling of an intention that anyone should ever fall into it; then, after Simonides was wronged by Tischendorf, guess who falls into the pit that Simonides innocently dug? Why, if it isn't Tischendorf! How very fortuitous. But alas for Simonides, although "any person learned in paleography ought to be able to tell at once that it is a MS of the present age", poetic justice is thwarted by the fact that no "person learned in paleography" does expose Tischendorf's blunder, and so the noble and virtuous Simonides is forced to do it himself. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I got a comment on one of my blog posts about Simonides, quoting Kenyon, and sent it on to Chris Pinto who has been researching the Simonides affair, and he wrote me an answer, HERE
Perhaps Pinto should have been more alert to the nature of the mss described?? ABE: But then I see that he goes on to quote someone who says the papyri Simonides had are identical to others already known. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Sorry, I missed that you said they belonged to him. I didn't know he claimed to possess gospel fragments. Pinto responded by repeating his normal tropes about Tischendorf that weren't really relevant and seemed equally unphased about the early/original Gospel of Matthew as you seem to have been. Edited by Modulous, : faith beat me to mentioning her blog entry about it by one minute
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
But then I see that he goes on to quote someone who says the papyri Simonides had are identical to others already known. Yes I imagine that is true. The Codex Mayerianus was in fact not what he said it was, and was designed to fool.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And here is a site where all James' writings can be read: I note that you don't even bother to deal with any of the things we all know King James actually did. King James was not a good man who just happen to kill and torture dozen of people.
Yes James I and his predecessor Elizabeth I did chase the Dissenters to the Anglican Church out of England. A sad chapter in history but it doesn't mean they weren't good Christians themselves, which they were, and it doesn't justify heaping slander on the man in any case. We have, after all, made peace with the Anglicans since then. Wrong. Persecuting other Christians does make you a bad man and not so great a Christian. But that's beside the point. With all of the smoke you are throwing up, you've pretty much agreed that torturing people into confessions and killing them is not the extent of King James evil.
releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land Amusing. Don't you want to be released from obeying laws against discriminating against gays? Yet you condemn the Catholic church from freeing people from obeying a dictator's laws.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Amusing. Don't you want to be released from obeying laws against discriminating against gays? Yet you condemn the Catholic church from freeing people from obeying a dictator's laws. This bogus moral equivalence you all practice here is really insane. No distinctions made between murderers and God believers, or you'll bend over backwards to prove the God believers are murderers. And I guess you believe it. ABE: It's hard to believe you would make an equivalence between Christians being free to refuse a service that would violate God's law, and Catholics being free to murder "heretic" kings on the authority of the Pope. Really unbelievable. When a person can make such a statement the world has gone truly mad. This is what you are comparing to Christians calling gay marriage a sin:
By the times of King James, the Popes of Rome had been usurping the rights of kings for centuries on end, placing them under interdict and causing many troubles, e.g., releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land, AND TELLING THEM THAT IT IS A "MERITORIOUS" THING TO KILL A HERETICK KING. IN FACT, JESUITS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS TRIED TO KILL KING JAMES IN THE GUNPOWDER PLOT OF 1605. King James wrote forcefully about the Roman Catholic church's tendency to usurp power, kill kings, and disrupt kingdoms. The following is excerpted from, "King James has a message that Rome does not want you to hear." /ABE I don't care if I'm released or not. I'm ready to see this whole ship sink if you want to know. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Coston defends the burning of "heretics"
Is burning heretics to death OK with you Faith?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
His argument is that they weren't real Christians anyway, so what's the fuss.
All of these wonderful sources Faith finds seem to be self published. I wonder if Faith can get this yahoo to post here so we can have fun with him like the last guy.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
This bogus moral equivalence you all practice here is really insane. No distinctions made between murderers and God believers, or you'll bend over backwards to prove the God believers are murderers. And I guess you believe it. Instead of telling us about murderers and God believers, because surely that does not describe all Catholics, why don't you tell us which laws of the land the Catholic Church said that their followers did not have to obey. That would be the real issue with the Divine right of kings I would think. Is a king really a god as King James proclaimed? Is that really a Christian proposition? Yes, killing a king is traitorous and there was a plot to kill King James in 1605. None of that justifies are explains the divine right of kings stuff. It does not even justify his persecution of Catholics.
I don't care if I'm released or not. I'm ready to see this whole ship sink if you want to know. Typical elderly fundy. Praying for the end times because your knees hurt?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
All of these wonderful sources Faith finds seem to be self published. This thread was started so that Faith could present her evidence that the Catholic Church, past and present, was the evil Empire, while the reformers and their followers are sugar, spice and everything nice. I for one, was not expecting cites to the Journal of World History. I was expecting exactly the level of scholarship that we are getting. Jack diddly squat. (Pardon the triple negative)Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Don't forget that it was the Puritans who killed James' successor, called by some "Charles the Martyr". It was pretty clear that Coston would be somewhat biased in avour of the Stuart kings when I saw that mentioned.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
This bogus moral equivalence you all practice here is really insane. I know, treating Protestants like they were Catholics. It's disgusting!
No distinctions made between murderers and God believers, or you'll bend over backwards to prove the God believers are murderers. Erm
quote: Are Catholics atheists or something? You are the one who has been bending over backwards to defend horrific torture of innocent people that sounds like the sadistic Inquisition.
It's hard to believe you would make an equivalence between Christians being free to refuse a service that would violate God's law, and Catholics being free to murder "heretic" kings on the authority of the Pope. Killing James VI - evilJames killing and torturing up to 100 innocent people (including Protestants) - regrettable but ultimately OK Killing Mary, Queen of Scots - good Killing Charles I - ??? Probably evil Killing Hitler - I assume that one was OK, too. Am I right?
By the times of King James, the Popes of Rome had been usurping the rights of kings for centuries on end, placing them under interdict and causing many troubles, e.g., releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land, AND TELLING THEM THAT IT IS A "MERITORIOUS" THING TO KILL A HERETICK KING. IN FACT, JESUITS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS TRIED TO KILL KING JAMES IN THE GUNPOWDER PLOT OF 1605. King James wrote forcefully about the Roman Catholic church's tendency to usurp power, kill kings, and disrupt kingdoms. The following is excerpted from, "King James has a message that Rome does not want you to hear." Why do you keep pasting this? It's some random guy with a CAPS LOCK problem who does not name which Pope said this, when, or source it in any way. On another page he reveals that this isn't a quote from a Pope after all but the indictment against Catholic terrorists as written by the anti-Catholic Protestants who had tortured them.
This is what you are comparing to Christians calling gay marriage a sin How about comparing refusing to serving gay customers to forcing Catholics from their jobs and homes? Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5
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I think that Faith has made it quite plain that anti-Catholic writings are automatically true. To her. Unless they aren't vicious enough, perhaps.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think that Faith has made it quite plain that anti-Catholic writings are automatically true. To her. Unless they aren't vicious enough, perhaps. I don't recall posting anything "vicious" but hey, you here all know my mind so much better than I possibly could. Anyway, I just found this one, collects some interesting facts in one place that I've been taking notes on:
So, you think the Roman Inquisition ended many centuries ago? Think again Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:22 (Before It's News) When Garibaldi’s armies marched into Rome in 1848, it was found that the Roman Catholic Church was walling-up, burning alive and also lowering victims — heretics and liberals, into giant ovens. The Vatican Church dungeons, discovered there, were opened up for the public to see (interestingly similar to what was done after WW2 when the Nazi camps were also opened for public viewing?) Although I have seen, in a film, pictures of just what was displayed to the public, I can’t find anything on a www image search. Has there been an attempt to delete these events, and the photographic record, from history? These events and the pictures are detailed in a film by Adulum Productions called ‘Tares Among the Wheat’ (follow link) -->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wep1KFb3wns The film also details the discovery that the Inquisition was still in full operation at the Convent of Santo Domingo in Mexico, exposed by H Grattan Guinness in his book City of Seven Hills, (1891). The evidence was presented in an English Baptist Church publication called The Sword and the Trowel’, spring edition 1873 (see link below) The article was written by the ‘Prince of Preachers’ Mr Charles Spurgeon, minister of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, in South London. The Sword and the Trowel is still in publication — although todays reverent gentlemen at the Metropolitan Tabernacle are peculiarly reluctant to discuss this and other related matters. Have the Jesuits infiltrated ALL the Protestant churches? Even the godly Baptist Churches, and London’s famous ‘Met Tab’? I suspect, sadly, yes. The following is from the Metropolitan Tabernacle publication called ‘The Sword and Trowel’, January 1873: The Spurgeon Library | Page not found The times changed, and being no longer able to burn the heretics and the excommunicated publicly, the holy office found means of putting them to death without the shedding of blood and for the glory of God, by means of walling-up and ovens.The walling-up was of two kinds, the propria, andimpropria, or complete and incomplete. By the first they punished dogmatists, by the second, the professors of witchcraft and sorcery. To punish the former they made a niche in a wall, where standing upright on his feet, they placed the condemned, binding him well to the wall with cords and chains, so that he could not move in the least. They then began to build from the feet to the knees, and every day they raised the wall a course, at the same time giving the prisoner to eat and to drink. When he died, and God knows with what agonies, the wall was built up. But dead or alive, it was closed in such a manner that no one could see where the niche had been and that a body remained there.The incomplete walling-up, or enclosure, was made by sitting the condemned in a pit bound hand and foot, so that his head only was above ground. The pit was then filled up with quicklime, and moisture from the body soon acting on it, converted it into fire, and the miserable wretch was burnt alive with the most frightful torture.As knowledge and civilization increased, and the people began to see through the impostures of the priests, they feared lest, spite of their secrecy, such atrocities might creep abroad amongst the corrupt sons of the age, and in order to retain the knowledge of these holy proceedings amongst a few, they dismissed the building-up, and adopted a plan more anticipative of the pains of hell, and this was by burning the condemned without flame, and without shedding of blood. They invented ovens, or furnaces, which being made red-hot, they lowered the condemned into them, bound hand and foot, and immediately closed over them the mouth of the furnace. This barbarous punishment was substituted for the burning pile, and in 1849, these furnaces at Rome were laid open to public view in the dungeons of the holy Roman Inquisition, near the great church of the Vatican And — believe it or not — the Holy Roman Inquisition is still in existence today, but has been renamed several times. It’s now called Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(C.D.F.). You will find all the details here on Wikipedia: Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith - Wikipedia TMWKTMBNE I denounce you as the enemy and the anti-Christ and all your false doctrine. I denounce you! I denounce you, as Christ’s enemy! Dr Ian Paisley, speaking from the audience of the European Parliament, addressing Pope John Paul II in 1988, who was addressing the European Parliament. Dr Paisley was violently removed from the building. No peace with ROME Charles Spurgeon, Sword and the Trowel, January 1873. The Tap Blog is a collective of like-minded researchers and writers who've joined forces to distribute information and voice opinions avoided by the world's media. Source: the tap: So, you think the Roman Inquisition ended many centuries ago? Think again Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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