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Author Topic:   Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 254
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 196 of 405 (743523)
12-01-2014 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
12-01-2014 8:38 PM


Which is caused by your not understanding his arguments though you so arrogantly think you do, think you understand them better than Calvinists and better than Calvin himself.

Yeah, kind of like a person might think they understand flat-earth arguments better than the flat-earthers themselves! Heresy!

Edited by Capt Stormfield, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 8:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 9:48 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 197 of 405 (743524)
12-01-2014 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Capt Stormfield
12-01-2014 8:46 PM


To think that such an educated man as Calvin would be subjected to such ignorance rather takes the breath away.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Capt Stormfield, posted 12-01-2014 8:46 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-01-2014 10:34 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 200 by Capt Stormfield, posted 12-02-2014 12:44 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 202 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2014 3:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 405 (743526)
12-01-2014 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
12-01-2014 9:48 PM


To think that such an educated man as Calvin would be subjected to such ignorance rather takes the breath away.

Do you think he knew that the Earth was billions of years old?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 9:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16011
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 199 of 405 (743527)
12-02-2014 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
12-01-2014 8:38 PM


You defame him by accusing him of arguments that make God evil. Which is caused by your not understanding his arguments though you so arrogantly think you do, think you understand them better than Calvinists and better than Calvin himself.

I think I understand them just as well as Calvin did, which is why I am able to communicate my idea of Calvin's opinions by, y'know, quoting his words. The question of whether I understand his arguments can hardly arise --- I am repeating his arguments.


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 Message 194 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 8:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 254
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 200 of 405 (743528)
12-02-2014 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
12-01-2014 9:48 PM


To think that such an educated man as Calvin would be subjected to such ignorance rather takes the breath away.

That an entire faux academic edifice can be constructed around arguing the non-existent, that takes away mine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 9:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10470
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(3)
Message 201 of 405 (743531)
12-02-2014 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
12-01-2014 7:56 PM


He's one of the greatest theologians according to the best preachers out there and you treat him like dirt the way you treat true believers in general like dirt and even treat God like dirt.

Calvin said what he said and even you seem unable to read his words in ways that reproduce theology that you can agree with. All you are managing to do here by deifying Calvin is to cast doubt on all of the preachers you've cited in other arguments.

Calvin believed in predestination, limited atonement, and conditional election. No question or doubt can exists about any of that. Many Christians consider those doctrines to have abhorrent aspects. I certainly do. Apparently you do too.

If you stick to worshiping Jesus rather than Lebron James or Calvin or Luther you'll stop being disappointed in your heroes.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 7:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 209 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-02-2014 10:36 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5569
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 202 of 405 (743532)
12-02-2014 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
12-01-2014 9:48 PM


Faith writes:


To think that such an educated man as Calvin would be subjected to such ignorance rather takes the breath away.

Don't worry about it Faith, you're perfectly capable of hand waving and rationalising all this stuff away and parking it all somewhere out of sight.

If it's any help, Calvin had no more knowledge of god that you or I did - just perhaps a bit more imagination.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 9:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 203 of 405 (743533)
12-02-2014 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
12-02-2014 2:43 AM


Gnock Gnock? Who's There?
NoNukes writes:

If you stick to worshiping Jesus rather than Lebron James or Calvin or Luther you'll stop being disappointed in your heroes.

Excellent quote!

I believe that all wisdom comes from God, but I also believe that we learn from each other. John Calvin lived in a vastly different era than we do, and his experiences and perceptions were quite different from our own, including the wisdom that he learned from his contemporaries.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 2:43 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 204 of 405 (743537)
12-02-2014 6:10 AM


Poor Calvin. Poor reality. Poor history. Poor knowledge. Poor sanity.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Theodoric, posted 12-02-2014 8:32 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 206 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-02-2014 9:37 AM Faith has responded
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-02-2014 10:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member (Idle past 77 days)
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 205 of 405 (743544)
12-02-2014 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
12-02-2014 6:10 AM


Yes, you seem to have made rather a hash of all those things.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 6:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 405 (743548)
12-02-2014 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
12-02-2014 6:10 AM


Poor Calvin. Poor reality. Poor history. Poor knowledge. Poor sanity.

Why are you so reluctant to agree that Calvinism says that God controls everything including our thoughts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 6:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 2:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16011
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 207 of 405 (743551)
12-02-2014 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
12-02-2014 6:10 AM


C'mon, Faith, we've had all sorts of silly arguments from you over the years, but now you're defending Calvin from the imputation of being a Calvinist.

This is the distinctive feature of Calvinism, it's what distinguishes it from generic Protestantism: the notion that God is so sovereign as to dispose of our wills just like he does everything else.

By his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.

If you don't like it, you don't have to believe it. But Calvin did believe it, and said it repeatedly, clearly, and distinctly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 6:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16011
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 208 of 405 (743552)
12-02-2014 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dr Adequate
11-28-2014 8:53 PM


Re: God is good; God is sovereign
A conventional God can say things like "This person has been good, therefore I will send them to heaven"; or "This person has been bad, therefore I will send them to hell". Such a God has a rational basis for his decisions.

Calvin's God can have no such basis. The most we can expect of him is self-consistency, he can say "I will make this person good and I will send them to heaven" or"I will make this person bad and I will send them to hell". On what basis can he decide how to treat which person? Not on the basis of their moral character, since that is one of the things he's deciding. And the same would go for any putative basis for his decisions. If --- to take an example at random --- he had a systematic preference for blondes over brunettes, this still couldn't be a basis for his decision, since he also gets to choose people's hair color. He'd still be left saying "I will make this person blonde and good and one of the elect, and that person dark-haired and evil and reprobate". He can, therefore, never have a reason for his actions.

I'm pleased to note that Calvin agrees with me explicitly:

For if his will has any cause, there must be something antecedent to it, and to which it is annexed; this it were impious to imagine. [...] Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, Because he pleased.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2014 8:53 PM Dr Adequate has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-02-2014 1:24 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16011
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 209 of 405 (743553)
12-02-2014 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
12-02-2014 2:43 AM


Calvin believed in predestination, limited atonement, and conditional election.

I think you're missing an "un" there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 2:43 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 405 (743578)
12-02-2014 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Dr Adequate
12-02-2014 10:33 AM


Re: God is good; God is sovereign
Its kinda weird that you acknowledged your own reply...

Calvin writes:

Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, Because he pleased.

Heh, that reminds me of that South Park episode...

God is all: "Its my hot universe, I'll do what I want"

And apparently according to Calvin, that's all we can say about that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-02-2014 10:33 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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