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Author | Topic: Do We NEED God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What are you talking about? But believers do have a monopoly(by default and by world view) on God. We believe that life itself is made possible only by and through God. The monopoly, in my mind, is God Himself. In Message 143 you said, "To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God," and in Message 145 I replied, "Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that." Your only response seems to be word salad.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets try this again.
My belief, of course is that God created all things. In Him is life and that life is the light of men. Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him. Critics would disagree, saying that God is within my imagination. My belief is that you all are part of His imagination, and thus we go round and round. The evidence does not validate my claims. You may say that you are doing just fine without Him. (You wanna be left alone) Now that we have all of that cleared up, what shall we discuss next? Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Lets try this again.My belief, of course is that God created all things. No he didn't
In Him is life and that life is the light of men. No it's not
Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him. No it's not
Critics would disagree, saying that God is within my imagination. My belief is that you all are part of His imagination, and thus we go round and round. Well yes, of course. That's because we all know what you believe because you keep telling us. We only go round and round because...
The evidence does not validate my claims. ....and
You may say that you are doing just fine without Him. Obviously I AM doing just fine without him.
(You wanna be left alone) We are left alone.
Now that we have all of that cleared up, what shall we discuss next? Something that is not just you telling us what you believe without a scrap of evidence and that can't be adequately countered with the statement "no it's not". Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: There is only one I AM. The lie would tell you "no there isn't". Obviously I AM doing just fine without him.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: There is only one I AM. The lie would tell you "no there isn't". If I could work out what that meant, I'm pretty sure I could just say 'no there isn't'. But As I can't.....Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Well I AM, so does that make me the I AM?
You really need to stop speaking in gibberish.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You know the point I am making.
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined:
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Phat writes: You know the point I am making. Actually Phat, no. Everyone knows the point you're TRYING to make. There is a big difference between trying and actually making that point.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
My belief, of course is that God created all things. In Him is life and that life is the light of men. Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him.Phat writes:
That's the problem. You might as well say that pink unicorns are prancing through my living room and that all logic, reason and reality are filtered through them. The evidence does not validate my claims. It isn't. Logic, reason and reality are still logic, reason and reality no matter what you believe. You are not talking about logic, reason and reality at all. You're talking about a silly caricature of logic, reason and reality. You're trying too hard to believe in what you know is not true.
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ScottRP Member (Idle past 176 days) Posts: 515 From: Tustin, California USA Joined: |
I believe that it is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife and that we need a Savior to deliver us from this miserable condition.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: However, we do have more information available to us about God that can indicate things to us more.To me, the most convincing piece of information is that if I were to imagine a universe without God... it would look exactly like the one we're currently living in. As well, if I were to imagine a universe with a benevolent, loving, powerful God.. it would be extremely different from the one we're currently living in. That leads me towards an understanding that God does not exist. Does this mean that you expect more out of God (Should He exist) than most of us do?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: Does this mean that you expect more out of God (Should He exist) than most of us do? I don't know. What it means to me is that I expect a benevolent, loving, powerful God to be benevolent, loving and powerful.With the way certain things are in this world, I cannot see how certain evils exist alongside a benevolent, loving and powerful God. Maybe God isn't as benevolent towards other humans as I am.Maybe God isn't as loving towards other humans as I am. Maybe God isn't as powerful as I want Him to be. Maybe some combination of those 3 things. Or, maybe God doesn't exist. I think it's the latter. Think of a little girl getting raped.In this world, little girls sometimes get raped. If I had the power to stop such things, I would. Why doesn't God? Is God not benevolent enough towards little girls?Is God not loving enough towards little girls? Is God not powerful enough to stop rapists? Some combination? Or maybe God doesn't exist. Some people may say that God doesn't want to interfere with the Free Will of the rapist.To those people, I ask if they care about the Free Will of the little girl. Both individuals have Free Will.The rapist wants to rape the little girl. The little girl does not want to be raped. If the rape happens - the rapist gets his way, and the little girl loses her free will.If the rape doesn't happen - the little girl gets her way, and the rapist loses his free will. It is impossible for the little girl to be raped and not-raped at the same time. There is no "both win" scenario. It's either one or the other. I side with the little girl. If anyone wants to try and twist themselves into thinking that a "benevolent, loving and powerful" God would side with the rapist instead of with the little girl... then I would then ask them to define the words "benevolent" and "loving" while backing away very slowly. It's not healthy to startle psychopaths...
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Think of a little girl getting raped. Think of the implications if you became an instant superhero. What would be your responsibility to society?In this world, little girls sometimes get raped. If I had the power to stop such things, I would. Why would society force you to be responsible for everything you could prevent? Should society have such power over an individual? Why is God reduced to the status of just another individual? Is it fair for the creation to direct the Creator? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: Think of the implications if you became an instant superhero. What would be your responsibility to society? My responsibility? Nothing.But if I was a superhero I would still stop the raping of little girls. Not because it was my responsibility, but because I'm benevolent, loving and powerful enough to do so. Why would society force you to be responsible for everything you could prevent? I don't think society could force me to be responsible for anything. Especially if I was a superhero.
Should society have such power over an individual? What power does society have over a superhero? I don't think I understand what you're trying to talk about.
Why is God reduced to the status of just another individual? Is it fair for the creation to direct the Creator? Reduced? I thought I was becoming a superhero in some sort of analogy towards God? A superhero is not "just another individual" or "reduced" in some way.I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not directing God to say that He has to save little girls from getting raped. I'm just saying that if God is powerful enough to stop such things, and He doesn't... then God is not benevolent or loving (at least, not towards that little girl). It's a fairly simple concept. There are many possible reasons why God doesn't stop such atrocities: God is not powerful enough.God is not benevolent enough. God is not loving enough. Or some combination. There can be some extremely good reasons in there. The reason why I don't stop such things are in those 3. (Mine's because I'm not powerful enough). Or maybe, God doesn't exist... but this kinda falls under "not powerful enough," too.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Not because it was my responsibility, but because I'm benevolent, loving and powerful enough to do so. Think of the implications, though. Assuming God could and would alter every event that was hurting someone...think of the implications of doing that. How would reality play out?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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