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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And if a believer holds to this belief then that means he believes this god thing of his purposely made non-believers so he could torture them in hell for all eternity. And made a whole hell of a lot of them, like the majority of all humans, so he could throw them in the lake of fire and revel in their torturous screams for all eternity. What alternatives can be envisioned? 1) Leave everyone alone. 2) Save everybody...showing absolutely no partiality--even though God would have a right to such a decision regardless how we humans judged Him.(Not that we speak as one voice to begin with.... ) perhaps instead of a hell, unbelievers...after given a choice and rejecting it....could simply cease to exist. Do you have any better ideas, assuming God is omnipotent?God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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May the circle be unbroken...
God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
While I like the idea of eliminating harsh judgement, I would miss the idea of Gods blessing, favor, and/or reward.
God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringp writes: If my "friend" were in fact the Creator of all seen and unseen, it would be you that would have to force yourself to ignore Him. And you like the idea of your friend forcing himself on everybody? Seems to me the problem isn't me. Granted, you want to be left alone. Granted its easier to deal with reality as we perceive it rather than being forced to read the pamphlet left at our door. If people try and force a way of belief, that is wrong. Calvinists believed in Monegismwhich comes from a compound Greek word that means to work alone, . They believed it was all on "my friend". While monergism is closely associated with John Calvin, synergism is associated with Jacob Arminius, and his views have greatly shaped the modern evangelical landscape. The latter see it as a two way street. If you shut yourself up in the towers of your mind, how can my friend ever talk to you...except I suppose through me. God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: Wouldn't that be the essence of free will? I am quite partial to the idea that when your kind of god, or any kind of god for that matter, confronts me and is rejected it would simply cease to exist. We are free to believe in magic, leprechauns and imaginary friends---or to choose to believe that our concept of reality is all that matters to us. We are of course responsible for our choices.God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar,in another thread writes: Talk about truly evil inventions and Calvinism has to be near or atop the list. Perhaps we better revisit this.
Phat,in 2014 writes: jar used to have an analogy known as The Warlord: quote:There once was a missionary in China. The village he was in was very poor, the crops had failed and people were near starving. One of the warlords showed up and told the people, if they would abandon their current master and join him he would see they got food. Just believe in him and all will be okay. Any that did not believe in him would be left to starve to death. The warlord could have saved everyone, he had wealth and more than enough food, but instead he wanted to save only those who would follow him. The analogy goes on to teach that the warlord had enough food for everyone and thus should have fed everyone...including those who did not like him nor wish to follow him.jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it. I would only say that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. Why is the Warlords philosophy such a good thing? Shouldnt people have a right to refuse the pardon?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How did I misrepresent you? I quoted you. My question is whether the warlord analogy makes sense and whether it can be compared to the governor's pardon analogy.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I thought I explained the positions earlier in this topic.
quote:So could it be said that the Warlord takes the initiative to provide food for everyone yet they must respond by eating his provision in order to avoid starvation? quote:In the second example, must the warlord feed his enemies as well? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I totally agree. I have always questioned the idea of "original sin" yet the evidence shows that humanity has not learned to collectively be as wise as we should be. Why do you suppose this is? Is war based on a profit motive and, if so, does this not prove intrinsic evil in human character? Did Jesus not tell us we should love our enemies? As a practical example, if we had spent the money we used to fight the Gulf Wars and the fighting in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan in education and health care and infrastructure not just here but wherever it was needed isn't it likely we would have fewer "enemies"? And getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil... is it due to the idea of a God who foreknowingly creates critters destined to be damned? Or is that an excuse conveniently provided by us to pardon ourselves.... Also...concerning spending wherever needed....could our current form of government allow us to spend money to heal rather than money to police? How do you see our behavior as relating to willful...if not original sin?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Well, whether it was created or evolved in humans, its a hideous system. Competition allows no possibility of being blessed or favored---two traits which I count on at my advanced age in order to keep up with the young lions ready to knock me off my pedestal. Competition is cruel to the aged. It's simple really - you're god apparently built a world where every species has to fight other species and its own, simply to survive. We're relics of that business model and only now learning to deal with it.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: And then you get to teach your kids how to be less brutal, more efficient, and less nasty. The lesson is taught. The God of my imagination played you like a pawn in a chess game! Of course if you apply Occam's razor and throw away the unnecessary god hypothesis, the problem is solved - life is short, disposable and brutish because it has no goal except to create more life in whatever means it can - no matter have inefficient and nasty.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jesus was obviously just another man, his death did not end this wordly suffering that your mythology predicted. Nor will your death or my death. Perhaps the worldly suffering was foreknown to spur many of us--those with a developed conscience, to get angry enough to do something about it. No God is needed. And even if One did exist, what good will it do you to waste time and energy complaining to Him? You may well think of Him (if He did exist) as a bastard, but your anger and protest can be used as the catalyst for you to try and correct the mistakes as you perceive them.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: You can eliminate evil and make the world better.-but this gets into the issue of where evil/not-evil actually exists along the gradient Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better. Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is. A few thoughts.
After all it seems to me to be a bit of hubris that humans with limited perception and information can arrogantly judge a Creator. But then again...as jar may suggest...we are charged to do just that. In this way, God helps us grow through judging and opposing Him.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Think about it this way. Muscles grow by being challenged over and above their limits. Tissue breaks down and is rebuilt at a stronger level. So what if God foreknew that the whole messy affair had to be brutal and ugly in order for the human character to have a chance at developing empathy, survival, and awareness of how to fight and grow? You're omnigod had only one choice? I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive environment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable. IF God had simply designed the environment as comfortable to us, we would simply be a bunch of couch potatoes with no character. You see death as tragic, which is a human characteristic. God may see death as simply leftover clay smashed back into the mound next to the wheel. And again as I said earlier...we may judge Him as being incompetent, petty, evil, or uncaring. We may even dismiss Him altogether. In the meantime, however, our inner character is evolving so as to guide our own destiny without Him. And if He exists this may have been His plan from the beginning anyway.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: Yes. We are charged to do what we can to make the world better. We may well be responsible, in fact.
Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better. Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is. I agree. Thats the best we can do. No shame there. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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