Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
jar
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Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 61 of 111 (819311)
09-09-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-09-2017 9:39 AM


The Debt Ceiling is necessary.
Having a Debt Ceiling is very good for several reasons.

First, it forces the subject to be publicly discussed and debated.

Second, it requires at least a minimal oversight on spending.

Third, it provides a specific self imposed limit yet can be modified as conditions change.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-09-2017 9:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 62 of 111 (819327)
09-09-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-09-2017 9:39 AM


Re: Debt can be good
Trump Says Debt Ceiling Is 'Not Necessary.' Is He Right?

Trump has a point. I see that Jar disagrees, but I don't necessarily disagree with Jar either. There are some political ramifications to having a debt ceiling, some good, and some bad.

But historically, I would suggest that the bad ramifications outweigh the good ones. As a country, we really do not have the option not to pay our bills. Theoretically, the decision to spend the money we have spent was made many moons ago.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-09-2017 9:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 09-09-2017 12:56 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 63 of 111 (819330)
09-09-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
09-09-2017 12:39 PM


Re: Debt can be good
What we really need are Politicians capable of looking beyond the next newscast.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2017 12:39 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2017 1:03 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 64 of 111 (819331)
09-09-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
09-09-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Debt can be good
What we really need are Politicians capable of looking beyond the next newscast.

You are right. The real problem here is the inability to make any kind of budget other than under emergency conditions like those imposed by having to raise the debt ceiling. The short term planning we do wastes money at least by forcing folks to plan on short cycles, but also by forcing us to borrow money under shorter time cycles than we could if we knew our priorities in advance.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 09-09-2017 12:56 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-12-2017 11:36 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 65 of 111 (819535)
09-12-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by NoNukes
09-09-2017 1:03 PM


Understanding Money
NoNukes writes:

The real problem here is the inability to make any kind of budget other than under emergency conditions like those imposed by having to raise the debt ceiling. The short term planning we do wastes money at least by forcing folks to plan on short cycles, but also by forcing us to borrow money under shorter time cycles than we could if we knew our priorities in advance.

I think the problem is even deeper. I believe that the entire financial system is based on borrowing, and is destined to fail. Watch this 9-minute video and tell me if you agree with the premise.

What Is A Bailout

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2017 1:03 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by caffeine, posted 09-12-2017 1:47 PM Phat has responded
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2017 4:47 PM Phat has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1349
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 66 of 111 (819541)
09-12-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
09-12-2017 11:36 AM


Re: Understanding Money
I think the problem is even deeper. I believe that the entire financial system is based on borrowing, and is destined to fail. Watch this 9-minute video and tell me if you agree with the premise.

What Is A Bailout

I gave up when he started claiming bank notes were not legal tender.

A thought on the debt ceiling - the article you quote earlier mentioned that about a quarter of US government debt was owed to the federal government. So what happens if the governments writes off debts to itself?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-12-2017 11:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-12-2017 4:41 PM caffeine has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 67 of 111 (819558)
09-12-2017 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by caffeine
09-12-2017 1:47 PM


Re: Understanding Money
It can't...because the debts to the government are the debts to the social security trust funds. Look at it as a debt to future obligations.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by caffeine, posted 09-12-2017 1:47 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 09-12-2017 4:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 70 by caffeine, posted 09-13-2017 3:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 68 of 111 (819559)
09-12-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
09-12-2017 4:41 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:

It can't...because the debts to the government are the debts to the social security trust funds. Look at it as a debt to future obligations.

But it can.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-12-2017 4:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(4)
Message 69 of 111 (819560)
09-12-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
09-12-2017 11:36 AM


Re: Understanding Money
Watch this 9-minute video and tell me if you agree with the premise.

Out of respect for you, I watched the video. I am going to send you a bill for 9 minutes of my time.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-12-2017 11:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-13-2017 5:22 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1349
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 70 of 111 (819623)
09-13-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
09-12-2017 4:41 PM


Re: Understanding Money
It can't...because the debts to the government are the debts to the social security trust funds. Look at it as a debt to future obligations.

I'm not really getting this. If there's not enough money in the social security trust fund to pay social security; then the government would just have to pay the payouts directly, wouldn't it? So what's the relevance of the government owing money to it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 09-12-2017 4:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 4:29 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 71 of 111 (819634)
09-13-2017 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by caffeine
09-13-2017 3:29 PM


Re: Understanding Money
caffeine writes:

If there's not enough money in the social security trust fund to pay social security; then the government would just have to pay the payouts directly, wouldn't it?

Not if it decides not to pay. The government can revise the Social Security rules at any time it wishes or even abolish Social Security if it wants.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 70 by caffeine, posted 09-13-2017 3:29 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 09-13-2017 5:31 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 72 of 111 (819637)
09-13-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by NoNukes
09-12-2017 4:47 PM


Re: Understanding Money
The man who made the video is respected. His name is Paul Grignon. Its all common sense to me. I dont see what keeps you from seeing that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2017 4:47 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 73 of 111 (819638)
09-13-2017 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
09-13-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Understanding Money
It would not be easy. Trump has even proposed tax reform aimed at it. FDR started it with the intention of having it around in perpetuity.
LA Times writes:

As FDR foresaw, endowing Social Security with its own revenue stream has protected it over the years from grasping politicians mostly conservatives, who have aimed since 1935 to eviscerate the program. The weekly or bi-weekly payroll deductions that go to the program have given workers a proprietary interest in benefits that has been hard to undermine.(...)Already, conservatives and budget hawks repeat as a mantra that the cost of Social Security is unsustainable. Thats their claim even though the program runs a surplus today and ensuring its fiscal stability for the future would require a modest increase in the tax rate or removal of the cap on taxable wages ($127,200 this year).

Scrapping the payroll tax would make it easier for Congress to cut Social Security benefits under the guise of saving the government money. And thats just another way to funnel more money to the rich, at the expense of the working class.

Thus we the public need to fight this with everything we have. Social Security came from our earnings and should be ours---forever.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 4:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 6:24 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 74 of 111 (819643)
09-13-2017 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
09-13-2017 5:31 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Phat writes:

Social Security came from our earnings and should be ours---forever.

Yet that really is irrelevant. The reality is what the elected officials decide will be reality. FDR is not in office currently nor is any of the Congress that voted for it still in office.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 09-13-2017 5:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 09-13-2017 7:43 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10054
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 75 of 111 (819661)
09-13-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
09-13-2017 6:24 PM


Re: Understanding Money
They have no idea how big of a revolution it would cause. The people always win, in the final analysis. If this government has any brains at all, they should know that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 6:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 7:47 PM Phat has responded
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 09-14-2017 12:06 PM Phat has responded

  
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