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Author Topic:   Questions based on a plain and simple reading of the US Constitution
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 1 of 169 (800015)
02-19-2017 10:02 AM


quote:
Article [IV] (Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Does a sweep where people are asked to provide evidence they are in the US legally violate this clause unless supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the names of the people or things to be seized?

quote:
Article [V] (Amendment 5 - Rights of Persons)

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Does this clause require that anyone said to be committing the crime of being in the US illegally must be given full due process and should they lose any property because of deportation that the US Federal Government must provide just compensation?

quote:
Article [VI] (Amendment 6 - Rights of Accused in Criminal Prosecutions)

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


Does this require that anyone accused of the crime of being in the US illegally must be given a speedy and public trial in the State where they are accused and are entitled to Assistance of Counsel for defense?

quote:
Article [VII] (Amendment 7 - Civil Trials)

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


If deportation should cause damage greater than $20.00 can a civil trial by jury be demanded?

quote:
Article [VIII] (Amendment 8 - Further Guarantees in Criminal Cases)

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Article [IX] (Amendment 9 - Unenumerated Rights)

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Article [X] (Amendment 10 - Reserved Powers)

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Are not immigrants, even if illegal, still people?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by marc9000, posted 02-19-2017 11:48 AM jar has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


(1)
Message 2 of 169 (800020)
02-19-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-19-2017 10:02 AM


The U.S. Constitution does not apply to non U.S. citizens. It does not apply in any way until a persons citizenship is confirmed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 02-19-2017 10:02 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 02-19-2017 11:50 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2017 12:33 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 3 of 169 (800021)
02-19-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by marc9000
02-19-2017 11:48 AM


marc writes:

The U.S. Constitution does not apply to non U.S. citizens. It does not apply in any way until a persons citizenship is confirmed.

Please provide the link to the part of the US Constitution that states that?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 4 of 169 (800025)
02-19-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by marc9000
02-19-2017 11:48 AM


You can say it all you want but it isn't true. In fact the opposite is true.

Can you state any court case that affirms what you claim?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 5 of 169 (800035)
02-19-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
02-19-2017 11:50 AM


Please provide the link to the part of the US Constitution that states that?

quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

This refers only to the U.S. It doesn't say "we the people of the world", or "ordain and establish this Constitution for the world". It really goes without saying that it's none of the U.S. business what goes on in other countries with those countries' citizens, provided there's no generally agreed upon threat to the U.S. mainland or it's citizens.

Most would agree that non-U.S. citizens should not be allowed to vote in U.S. elections, and most would also agree that even an illegal immigrant should not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment within the U.S.

More and more as transportation and communications make the world smaller and smaller, and as the political left's comprehension of the Constitution and intent of the framers gets fuzzier and fuzzier, it's not surprising that some would wonder if the Fourth Amendment, OBVIOUSLY intended only for citizens, would apply to illegal immigrants. It's not a simple discussion if one has to overcome all the re-writing of history that has been going on in the Democrat party for several years now.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by jar, posted 02-19-2017 3:44 PM marc9000 has responded
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 02-19-2017 11:42 PM marc9000 has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(4)
Message 6 of 169 (800037)
02-19-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by marc9000
02-19-2017 2:00 PM


It burns. The preamble just outlines who is the authority behind the Constitution are the authority. The people who wrote the Constitution and the people that were the authority were not citizens of the USA.

The preamble says nothing about who ahs rights or what they are. All it does explain the purpose and the authority behind it.

The United States referenced in your highlight is not the United States of America. You are equivocating. It could not be because the political entity USA did not exist yet. What it referred to is the people of the individual states united together.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by marc9000, posted 02-19-2017 2:00 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 02-19-2017 2:25 PM Theodoric has responded
 Message 12 by marc9000, posted 02-19-2017 4:38 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 169 (800038)
02-19-2017 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
02-19-2017 2:17 PM


Marc is right about what the preamble implies, who it covers. Sometimes I wonder how all the revisionists manage not to choke to death on the sophistries required to rationalize it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2017 2:17 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13122
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 8 of 169 (800041)
02-19-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
02-19-2017 2:25 PM


You will note that Marc is being quite thoroughly dishonest. Carefully avoiding providing support for his original claim (and implicitly going back on it), raising the issue of foreign governments as a strawman and trying to frame the issue as dealing solely with illegal immigrants (when his original claim would include legal immigrants and Jar's OP dealt mainly with people suspected or accused of being illegal immigrants who should surely benefit from the principle of "innocent until proven guilty")

As for you - defending rights granted by the Constituion is in no way revisionism. Your dislike for the actual Constitution does not change it in any way or devalue its legal standing. Lying rants will not avail you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 02-19-2017 2:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 9 of 169 (800048)
02-19-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by marc9000
02-19-2017 2:00 PM


marc writes:

Most would agree that non-U.S. citizens should not be allowed to vote in U.S. elections, and most would also agree that even an illegal immigrant should not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment within the U.S.

And again, what does that have to do with any of the parts of the US Constitution I posted?

marc writes:

More and more as transportation and communications make the world smaller and smaller, and as the political left's comprehension of the Constitution and intent of the framers gets fuzzier and fuzzier, it's not surprising that some would wonder if the Fourth Amendment, OBVIOUSLY intended only for citizens, would apply to illegal immigrants.

Again, I posted the text of the IV Amendment. Where in it does it say or even imply that it applies only to citizens?

In addition, where is there anything in Amendments IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX and X that might indicate they do not apply to anyone within the borders or the US?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by marc9000, posted 02-19-2017 2:00 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 10 of 169 (800049)
02-19-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
02-19-2017 2:25 PM


Just because he says so and you agree does not make it true. How about you present some kind of legal support for this argument. Or better yet actually address the argument I made. Show me how my points are wrong or my argument is fallacious.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 02-19-2017 2:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


(1)
Message 11 of 169 (800053)
02-19-2017 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
02-19-2017 2:25 PM


This is a wake-up call for me, I didn't know it was getting this bad in the U.S. - that even liberals are so out of touch with reality to believe that the U.S. is responsible, and bears the burden, of applying it's constitution and principles to foreigners, any foreigner that seeks them, or gets near the U.S. mainland. Even when the U.S. government knows nothing about them, or what their intentions are.

Maybe there could be a new constitutional amendment; When the U.S. national debt surpasses $20 trillion, it's time to re-think all the money and attention we lavish on illegal immigrants as we bend over backwards to grant them all U.S. constitutional guarantees.


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 Message 7 by Faith, posted 02-19-2017 2:25 PM Faith has acknowledged this reply

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marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 12 of 169 (800054)
02-19-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
02-19-2017 2:17 PM


This is fascinating, do you believe that non-U.S. citizens who never get near the U.S. and have no interest or desire to, also have U.S. constitutional rights? That.....everyone everywhere has the right to keep and bear arms? Does the U.S. government have to enforce that?
This message is a reply to:
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marc9000
Member
Posts: 906
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 13 of 169 (800057)
02-19-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
02-19-2017 3:44 PM


And again, what does that have to do with any of the parts of the US Constitution I posted?

(this place is an exercise in word processing) I was generalizing what parts of the constitution could be considered for a not-yet-vetted immigrant. And there aren't many.

Again, I posted the text of the IV Amendment. Where in it does it say or even imply that it applies only to citizens?

quote:
Article [IV] (Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

"Persons, houses, papers, effects" - within the U.S. maybe??

Warrants, places, things, within the U.S. maybe?

You don't see an implication that it was referring to citizens? And ~I'm~ accused of not being honest. It is beyond amazing.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13122
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 14 of 169 (800058)
02-19-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by marc9000
02-19-2017 4:47 PM


quote:

"Persons, houses, papers, effects" - within the U.S. maybe??

Warrants, places, things, within the U.S. maybe?

You don't see an implication that it was referring to citizens? And ~I'm~ accused of not being honest. It is beyond amazing.


People in the U.S. would include non-citizens in the U.S. Why would it be odd for the Amendment to cover them, the houses they rent or own, or their papers or effects ?

It is indeed amazing that anybody would be unable to realise that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by marc9000, posted 02-19-2017 4:47 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 15 of 169 (800059)
02-19-2017 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by marc9000
02-19-2017 4:47 PM


Again, where does it mention that those rights are reserved for citizens?

As you point out, the US Constitution applies to people within the borders of the US.

That would include illegal immigrants within the borders of the US.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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