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Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 574 of 759 (702916)
07-12-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Faith
07-12-2013 4:44 PM


Re: Can't we just go back to "traditional" marriages?
Christian law WAS the law of the US
Christian law was never the law of this country. It may have been the law of some considerably smaller groups prior to the formation of this country, but it was never a part of the law under the Constitution which formed this country.
All your freedoms derive from it.
Really? So you believe woman's suffrage derives from Christianity? Clearly not. It's also clear that slavery is completely compatible with Christianity as well. So, no, there might be a couple of freedoms that don't derive from Christianity.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 4:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 614 of 759 (702980)
07-13-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by jar
07-13-2013 9:14 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives.
The text in Genesis 16:6-10 does not agree with your interpretation. Faith's seems to be more faithful to the text.
Hagar was sent back to submit to Sarai who clearly did not want Hagar anywhere near her husband anymore. Abram had also yielded control of Hagar to Sarai before Hagar left. I think there is a clear implication that Hagar was not going to be treated like a wife anymore.
Genesis 16:6-10
quote:
But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Not that it makes Hagar's treatment was any less despicable, but it seems clear that she was out of the second wife business. Not only was she under Sarai, but even afterwards, both she and her soon were booted out of the house.
You can of course argue that I am reading somethings in between the lines that are not explicitly there, but let me suggest that your interpretation requires reading in opposite things that are against what the text actually says.
Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile.
Yes, but apparently God fixed that up in the very next Chapter which I would think undercuts your point a bit.
God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy.
Perhaps not, but the particular argument you've chosen is not all that great.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 11:47 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 617 of 759 (702990)
07-13-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Faith
07-13-2013 11:00 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
Faith writes:
He always treats her with respect as his wife.
Faith writes:
we don't know for sure whether Hagar went back as Abraham's wife but her not having more children is a good sign she may not have
Do you not see the contradiction here?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 11:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 12:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 621 of 759 (703066)
07-14-2013 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
07-13-2013 12:18 PM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
I wrote a long post in which I agreed with you that Hagar did not return as Abrams wife. However delivering Hagar into Sarai tender mercies was not treating her like a wife in any way. What's your problem?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Faith, posted 07-14-2013 8:19 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 626 of 759 (704712)
08-14-2013 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
07-03-2013 11:58 AM


Pentagon to give military benefits to all married service people.
Will the changes to DOMA take effect toward the individuals who receive a same sex civil union in the city of Bisbee or will the Federal Government rely upon the laws of the State of Arizona to determine whether or not to pay federal benefits to those with same sex civil unions?
Looks like, for now at least, the executive branch is taking the lead on addressing this question.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...o-same-sex-military-spouses
"Pentagon extends benefits to same-sex military spouses"
quote:
The Pentagon on Wednesday announced it would extend federal benefits to same-sex spouses of military personnel and civilian defense employees, following up on a Supreme Court decision that overturned a key portion of the Defense of Marriage Act.
The benefits will be available to all legally married spouses regardless of sexual orientation beginning no later than Sept. 3, according to a Defense Department announcement.
Looks like showing a legal marriage license is enough to get benefits. But look at what the Washington Post says the Pentagon had planned to do before the SC decision (emphasis added by me):
quote:
Before the Supreme Court decision this year, the Defense Department had planned to allow same-sex spouses and domestic partners to sign a relationship declaration in order to receive limited benefits such as access to commissaries and certain health programs.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 07-03-2013 11:58 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 631 of 759 (714274)
12-21-2013 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by Dr Adequate
12-20-2013 8:35 PM


Re: Utah
quote:
At oral argument, the State attempted to distinguish post-menopausal women from gay men and lesbians by arguing that older women were more likely to find themselves in the position of caring for a grandchild or other relative.
I believe we've heard similar arguments from a poster here. I imagine it does sound sillier in court.
A: No, no, no.
B: No?
A: Well yes, of course, but we don't say that in public.
ROFL
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-20-2013 8:35 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 637 of 759 (760872)
06-26-2015 11:15 AM


Finally Settled.. Supreme Court allows adults to marry whoever they want!!
I knew if felt funny outside for some reason...
Supreme Court rules states must allow same-sex marriage
quote:
Supreme Court rules states must allow same-sex marriage
Washington (CNN)In a landmark opinion, the Supreme Court ruled Friday that states cannot ban same-sex marriage, establishing a new civil right and handing gay rights advocates a victory that until very recently would have seemed unthinkable.
The 5-4 ruling had Justice Anthony Kennedy writing for the majority with the four liberal justices. Each of the four conservative justices wrote their own dissent.
The far-reaching decision settles one of the major civil rights fights of this era -- one that has rapidly evolved in the minds of the American pubic and its leaders, including President Barack Obama. He struggled publicly with the issue and ultimately embraced same-sex marriage in the months before his 2012 re-election.
The decision affirmed growing public support in the U.S. for gay marriage, with about two-thirds of Americans now in favor. And it comes as gay rights groups have seen gay marriage bans fall rapidly in recent years, with the number of states allowing gay marriage swelling most recently to 37 -- that is, until this ruling.
I'm just waiting to see what Republican hopeful will do a "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" type George Wallace speech and pretty much guarantee that he becomes politically irrelevant by the time 2016 rolls around.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 11:56 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 670 of 759 (760953)
06-26-2015 5:38 PM


Love reign o'er Everyone!!!
In the US, love is officially for everyone!
Only hate lost today!
I wish my tone deaf self could carry a tune. I'd be belting out this one. Please enjoy Roger Daltrey's voice instead of my crackling noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOx31OiqV8w
quote:
Only love can make it rain
The way the beach is kissed by the sea
Only love can make it rain
Like the sweat of lovers layin' in the fields
Love, reign o'er me
Love, reign o'er me
Rain on me, rain on me
Let freedom ring!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by Jon, posted 06-26-2015 10:48 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 694 by RAZD, posted 06-28-2015 3:18 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 671 of 759 (760958)
06-26-2015 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by Bliyaal
06-26-2015 4:52 PM


The Supreme Court, a handful of dudes
Pardon me? A handful of dudes and dudine!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Bliyaal, posted 06-26-2015 4:52 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Bliyaal, posted 06-26-2015 8:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 676 of 759 (760987)
06-26-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by Bliyaal
06-26-2015 8:56 PM


No disrespect taken!
We don't typically use the word 'dudine' here. I had to look it up in order to poke fun at you. Turns out it was coined back in the 1800s.
By the way I, my wife is traveling this week. I called my wife here this evening to check on whether things were okay between us given that marriage had been redefined right underneath our very feet. She told me that she still loves me even though I spend too much time on EvC.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Bliyaal, posted 06-26-2015 8:56 PM Bliyaal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-27-2015 2:38 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 678 of 759 (760992)
06-26-2015 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 675 by Jon
06-26-2015 10:48 PM


Re: Love reign o'er Everyone!!!
Today in the US, marriage is officially for everyone legally able to marrywhich has always been the case.
Today is a historic day that even you cannot ruin, Jon. Read some poetry, dude!
Love is officially for everyone!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by Jon, posted 06-26-2015 10:48 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by Jon, posted 06-27-2015 8:50 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 679 of 759 (760995)
06-27-2015 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by Faith
06-26-2015 4:26 PM


I'm only talking about being punished for standing on God's word as we always have
Given that you don't own either a bakery or a tuxedo rental shop, it occurs to me that you are in little danger of real or perceived persecution. If you simply manage to not spit on some passing lesbians and if you can avoid tying a gay teen to a fence in Wyoming you can avoid legal prosecution completely. The above situation applies to about 99.99% of all people including Christians. Shouldn't be all that hard.
Yes, Christians were fed to lions back in the day. You trivialize their martyrdom with your whining.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Faith, posted 06-26-2015 4:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 699 of 759 (768599)
09-12-2015 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by Percy
09-12-2015 9:14 AM


Re: Redefining Marriage
The Supreme Court cannot create law, only interpret it, so the only way they could allow gay marriage was to redefine marriage, and they did.
I think the idea that the SC 'redefined marriage' is total BS and accepting that is essentially yielding ground to bigots. Did we redefine the meaning of 'polite society' so that colored folks could participate? Does accepting Chinese people mean that we have redefined the meaning of 'human being'. I can imagine that some people might have wanted to phrase it that way back in the 1950s or even in 1865.
The commitment and meaning of marriages between opposite sex couples is exactly the same as it was last year. The fact that other combinations of people can also get married changes nothing for previously married people.
But I believe it would have been better if a new category of union had been created by Congress that had all the rights of marriage but was only civil in nature and not called marriage.
Yet another 'separate but equal' solution, right? I disagree. Creating a new category of union would not have been better. Which one of Congress' enumerated powers do you think would allow such a thing, anyway? Tax and Spend?
And then would bigots be willing to make a 'union cake' rather than a 'wedding cake'? I doubt it.
If in fact, the past state of the law represented states legislating Biblical views of marriage, why would that be constitutional? Only because it was traditional rather than merely Biblical, and tradition that discriminates and hurts other people is not worth preserving; at least in my view.
Eventually the butt hurt people who are outraged and worried about what other people are doing will die off and get out of the way of the happiness of everybody else. Screw 'em.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by Percy, posted 09-12-2015 9:14 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 700 of 759 (768602)
09-12-2015 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by herebedragons
09-12-2015 10:44 AM


Re: Redefining Marriage
My concern is that now that marriage has been redefined that churches and clergy will be unable to refuse to perform or allow same sex marriages in their buildings. It has been stated that churches will still have the right to refuse to perform same sex marriages, but on what grounds?
What happens today when churches refuse to perform interracial marriages, or elect only to perform marriages for church members, or when the pastor requires that the couple undergo his counseling before marrying them?
Nothing. Churches currently have complete discretion on whom they marry and whom they bury and they don't have to state any grounds for refusal. If there is an issue in this regard it will be on state officials that perform civil marriage ceremonies.
Complete red herring. Stop parroting the bigots.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by herebedragons, posted 09-12-2015 10:44 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 703 of 759 (768635)
09-12-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by Percy
09-12-2015 9:14 AM


Re: Redefining Marriage
I couldn't find where in the Bible it says anything about selling daughters into marriage.
Genesis 29:
Jacob agreed to work for seven years to earn Rachel for his wife, and was cheated and tricked into sleeping with Leah. Jacob then worked a second seven years in order to receive Rachel.
More along similar lines...
quote:
Biblical marriage is a man arranging to buy a girl from her father for an agreed upon purchase price (Genesis 29:18).
Biblical marriage is a wife giving, regardless of her maid servant's wishes, her servant to her husband as a wife for sex and procreation (Genesis 16:2-3, Genesis 30:3, Genesis 30:9, etc.)
Biblical marriage is a raiding party murdering the fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters of a people but saving the young virgins because they want wives [i.e. women to capture and rape, legally] (Judges 21:10-14)
Biblical marriage is a raiding party lying in wait to capture more women as wives to legally rape (Judges 21:20-24)
Biblical marriage is a victim being forced to marry her rapist with no hope of divorce [but don't worry — her father is suitably compensated in cash for the trouble, and this is only valid if the woman is not already another man's property...so relax, no property rights are violated by this arrangement!] (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
Biblical marriage is selling your daughter as a slave to be given to her owner or owner's son for sexual exploitation as a wife [though denied the minimal protections of a wife] (Exodus 21:7-11)
Biblical marriage is one man taking multiple, even hundreds, of wives and concubines (see: David, Solomon, Jacob, Abraham, etc.)
Biblical marriage is a woman as property whose own happiness is inconsequential, but whose property status is absolute (see: David and Michal)
Dear Christians who oppose gay marriage because it isn't "Biblical marriage"...#

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by Percy, posted 09-12-2015 9:14 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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