Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8871 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-13-2018 9:21 PM
220 online now:
Astrophile, Capt Stormfield, GDR, kjsimons, Percy (Admin), Tanypteryx (6 members, 214 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: paradigm of types
Post Volume:
Total: 841,907 Year: 16,730/29,783 Month: 718/1,956 Week: 221/331 Day: 97/43 Hour: 3/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
757677
78
7980Next
Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1156 of 1196 (842063)
10-26-2018 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1155 by Straggler
10-26-2018 4:13 AM


Not just the numbers but the quality of the thought too
The fact that lots of people believe something doesnt make it true. Lots of people have believed lots of very silly things.

Lots of people don't just believe lots of silly things these days. That idea in itself is a silly thing people believe though. It's really a stupidly ignorant belief that is held by more and more people all because of some stupidly ignorant propaganda. The history of Christianity shows a very high level of intellectual and social thought that makes today's political and social thought look idiotic.

The fact that there are historically such great minds and souls in support of Christ really ought to dissuade you from dismissing them as just a bunch of silly people and take seriously that they have something important to say to you.

There is a question to answer about why so many people believe such things.

There is no such question from the point of view of those who do hold these beliefs, or who appreciate what Christianity has done for the world, it's only in the mind of people who have no clue to any of it.

And if we examine that question using the most reliable investigative techniques available to us there are answers to be found.

Unfortunately such techniques are utterly incompetent to answer the questions you are asking.

But the answers so far achieved point to psychology, culture, history and other such very human factors. There is nothing to suggest actual god-given purpose beyond the popularity of the idea that there is one (with no real agreement on what that purpose would actually be, even amongst believers).

Which is the only kind of answer your techniques could give you and it is ridiculously inadequate to the task, as if you asked a fish to judge an elephant.

So the difference between me and Phat is not that I am a robotic automaton who cannot experience love unless my Geiger counter tells me to. Its that I am happy to claim love, find purpose and subjective m

I don't agree with Phat about much and I would never call an unbeliever an automaton (though I doubt Phat did either), and of course unbelievers experience all the things you mention and think they are happy with that too. I don't question any of that. I also know unbelievers have a conscience and a moral sense because those are God-given faculties. We're all made in the image of God. But salvation and knowledge of God are something else, something we lost at the Fall that can only be reclaimed by believing in Christ. You are a very high and noble creature with an immortal soul and you can't find that out with your investigative techniques.

Psa 8:4-6 writes:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands...

But fallen man has become like a beast and thinks he is a beast. Toss him such pearls and he tramples them underfoot

Psalm 49:20 writes:

Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1155 by Straggler, posted 10-26-2018 4:13 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1157 by Straggler, posted 10-26-2018 11:36 AM Faith has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10237
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1157 of 1196 (842080)
10-26-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1156 by Faith
10-26-2018 10:10 AM


Re: Not just the numbers but the quality of the thought too
quote:
There is a question to answer about why so many people believe such things.

There is no such question from the point of view of those who do hold these beliefs, or who appreciate what Christianity has done for the world, it's only in the mind of people who have no clue to any of it.


1) I am talking about all who seek/claim divine purpose. Not necessarily just Christians.

2) That not questioning bit is where you are going wrong.

quote:
Unfortunately such techniques are utterly incompetent to answer the question you are asking

What techniques or methods of discovery do you suggest instead?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1156 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 10:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1160 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 2:26 PM Straggler has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1158 of 1196 (842088)
10-26-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1152 by Faith
10-25-2018 7:55 PM


Re: Tangles Basic Belief
Faith writes:

Not even the fact that millions of others have thought so and many even written extensively about it.


Yes, the millions of Muslims are a compelling reason to believe that there is no god but Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1152 by Faith, posted 10-25-2018 7:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1159 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 2:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1159 of 1196 (842098)
10-26-2018 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1158 by ringo
10-26-2018 12:05 PM


Re: Tangles Basic Belief
Except that Ilsam is patently evil and idiotic. That's the difference.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1158 by ringo, posted 10-26-2018 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1161 by ringo, posted 10-26-2018 2:38 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1160 of 1196 (842099)
10-26-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1157 by Straggler
10-26-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Not just the numbers but the quality of the thought too
talking about all who seek/claim divine purpose. Not necessarily just Christians.

You were answering me and I was only talking about Christianity.

2) That not questioning bit is where you are going wrong.

I'm not going wrong at all, you are. Believers know the answer so have no reason to question.

What techniques or methods of discovery do you suggest instead?

There aren't any. Believing is what Jesus tells us to do. If you want a technique of investigation instead, forget it, there aren't any.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1157 by Straggler, posted 10-26-2018 11:36 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1162 by Straggler, posted 10-26-2018 3:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1161 of 1196 (842102)
10-26-2018 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1159 by Faith
10-26-2018 2:21 PM


Re: Tangles Basic Belief
Faith writes:

Except that Ilsam is patently evil and idiotic. That's the difference.


Your claim, in Message 1152, was that millions of believers is a reason to believe that God exists. How do you tell the evil and idiotic millions from the reasonable millions?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1159 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 2:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1165 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 5:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10237
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1162 of 1196 (842104)
10-26-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1160 by Faith
10-26-2018 2:26 PM


Re: Not just the numbers but the quality of the thought too
So millions of believers is justification itself for belief and dont ask questions just believe is the investigative technique at play. But only as long as were talking about Christianity because none of the other religions with millions of followers are worth considering.

I see.

Thanks for the objective and impartial analysis and advice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1160 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 2:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1163 of 1196 (842108)
10-26-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1112 by Phat
10-11-2018 3:24 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Hi Phat!

I would argue that at least some Christians are more qualified to comment on what Jesus means for us today rather than throwing him away and keeping a 2000-year-old message in a book with which to defend your point.

Except multiple thousands of wildly varying groups shouting over each other telling us what Jesus really said invalidates your entire point. None of you have proved to have any better idea than any of the rest of us. Look at the nonsense here on our own pages...ICANT and creation can't even decide on the number of Adam and Eve creatures wandering through the first pages of the Bible. You guys act beyond absurd.

One does not do a plain literal reading of a 2000-year-old "message and apply it to modern society in a modern context.

One does not! Because we know better, so much better than 4,000 year old superstitious scribes! We actually know better! So do all of you. That's why you all wriggle and writhe out of the true, original meaning of Scripture in a variety of bizarre "Interpretations" in a crazy attempt to align their primitive morality to the modern human.

... what Jesus means for us today rather than throwing him away and keeping a 2000-year-old message in a book with which to defend your point.

I understand what you want to say here, but it is also absurd. The only, only, ONLY way you know anything about your "living, moving, and coming" Saviour, is because he is talked about in that 2000 year old book you would reject in place of His PERSON.

Very circular belief.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1112 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4526
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1164 of 1196 (842109)
10-26-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1113 by Phat
10-11-2018 3:32 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

To me, the message is not something written down thousands of years ago. It is also largely irrelevant what ancient folks did or didn't do. If Jesus is relevant at all, He is relevant in a current living sense.

Hi Phat. That is ok but it will only take you so far and for that matter can, and will, lead you down the wrong paths. To understand Jesus' message in the NT it is important to have a fairly reasonable sense of the culture and the political environment of the time. Much of what Jesus was talking about was very political and if we want to know how to apply that message to the 21st century we have to understand it in Jesus' 1st century Jewish environment.

That is the trouble with a lot of Christianity theology today. It is taking texts written in a very different time and in a very different culture and trying to force them into a 21st century world. Square pegs and round holes.

There's a hymn I like that has this line in it that reads like this; "So complex so simple, so clear so mysterious". The Christianity message of loving your neighbour and the message in my signature is simple and clear. Christian theology is complex and mysterious.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1113 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1166 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 5:17 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1165 of 1196 (842110)
10-26-2018 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1161 by ringo
10-26-2018 2:38 PM


Re: Tangles Basic Belief
By their doctrines.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1161 by ringo, posted 10-26-2018 2:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1172 by ringo, posted 10-27-2018 11:35 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1166 of 1196 (842111)
10-26-2018 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1164 by GDR
10-26-2018 5:01 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
I agree with you that the culture of the times is important for understanding what Jesus meant, or any other part of the Bible for that matter, but I disagree strenuously that

Much of what Jesus was talking about was very political

No. Jesus said nothing political. Zip.

That is the trouble with a lot of Christianity theology today. It is taking texts written in a very different time and in a very different culture and trying to force them into a 21st century world. Square pegs and round holes.

That is complete poppycock. Standard evangelical preaching, as well as Reformed preaching which is more my part of the Church, is generally very well grounded in the culture and historical context of the time of Christ, and in in fact all the different time periods covered in the Bible throughout the Old Testament as well, and nobody tries to force anything on them. That information is used to bring out the meaning of the texts. I don't know where you get such silly ideas about traditional Christianity.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1164 by GDR, posted 10-26-2018 5:01 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1167 by GDR, posted 10-26-2018 5:51 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4526
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1167 of 1196 (842119)
10-26-2018 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1166 by Faith
10-26-2018 5:17 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

No. Jesus said nothing political. Zip.

Well, you are wrong. Obviously you will disagree, but much of your end times theology isn't eschatological at all. Jesus spoke against the revolutionaries telling them that if they kept that up Jerusalem, and more specifically the Temple, would be destroyed as happened in 70AD. You assign a ridiculous literal interpretation to something that obviously is meant as hyperbole.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1166 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 5:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1168 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 6:09 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1168 of 1196 (842120)
10-26-2018 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1167 by GDR
10-26-2018 5:51 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Huh?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by GDR, posted 10-26-2018 5:51 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1169 by GDR, posted 10-26-2018 6:39 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4526
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1169 of 1196 (842122)
10-26-2018 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1168 by Faith
10-26-2018 6:09 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

Huh?

Well, that's pretty conclusive and explains a lot.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1168 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 6:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1170 by Faith, posted 10-26-2018 9:27 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30022
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1170 of 1196 (842126)
10-26-2018 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1169 by GDR
10-26-2018 6:39 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Translation of "huh" = I can't answer you if you aren't specific about what Jesus said and why you think it means what you said.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1169 by GDR, posted 10-26-2018 6:39 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1171 by GDR, posted 10-27-2018 2:13 AM Faith has responded

    
RewPrev1
...
757677
78
7980Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018