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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
RAZD
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Posts: 18790
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 166 of 323 (808675)
05-12-2017 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by CRR
05-11-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
Nylonase, fine tuning
"This is the story of a pre-existing enzyme ...

Can you tell me what enzyme is not pre-existing?

... which improved its activity toward nylon by first one, then another selectable mutation. In other words this is a completely plausible case of gene duplication, mutation, and selection operating on a pre-existing enzyme to improve a pre-existing low-level activity, ...

Notice the complete acceptance of mutation and selection. Notice that the action of the enzyme was improved by the mutations, thereby demonstrating they are beneficial.

Once again, in plain english, they accept selection of beneficial mutations as having occurred.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : ..


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Percy
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Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
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(4)
Message 167 of 323 (808676)
05-12-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
05-11-2017 9:05 PM


Re: ring species
Faith writes:

Genetic diseases are a consequence of reduced genetic diversity but not inevitable.

Down syndrome is an example of a genetic disease of increased genetic diversity. It's caused by an additional copy of chromosome 21 that occurs by chance.

Marfan sydrome (connective tissue disorder) and Huntington's disease are more genetic diseases of increased genetic diversity. They can be inherited or caused by chance mutation.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 9:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18790
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 168 of 323 (808678)
05-12-2017 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by CRR
05-12-2017 12:54 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
It is the theory of evolution that relies on the gain of copious quantities of genetic information. ...

Curiously that is a creationist claim, and a falsehood. The theory of evolution could not give squat about "copious quantities of genetic information" -- just mutation and selection, things we see occurring every day.

In addition, your reference to "copious quantities of genetic information" means nothing until you can measure and quantify "information" and actually show increases and decreases. That's one of the ways we know that evolution science doesn't care about it. The other reason is that evolution appears to work very well without any measurement of pseudo-parameters like "information" -- just what actually happens.

So evolution is about mutations and selection, selection of mutations that are beneficial (like the lactase mutation and the nylonase mutation), where selection of beneficial mutations occurs because they improve survival or reproduction.

I am wondering why you are presenting examples of mutations and their selection on a thread titled "Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection' " ... unless you are following bluegenes suggestion of posting examples of selection occurring.

In which case, good job, these are good examples.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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Davidjay
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Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 169 of 323 (808679)
05-12-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by RAZD
05-12-2017 8:16 AM


Re: NO mutations away from mothers milk..miracle
Babies were born as is, since their creation.....

The Lord or if you like their designer designed them to be able to process mothers milk because it is BY FAR the best for them including the amazing abilities after giving birth, that makes mothers milk absolutely important and vital rather than cow milk and its economic profit from manufacturers.....

Its by design.... no mutation put all those ingeedients in a mothers milk, to help her new born. Please study and learn about procreation and the miracle of birth and mothers milk.

No mutation has ever taken place, we still are the same as in the BEGINNING.

Yes, GMOS etc from man are screwing up people after birth for economic sake of the rich and powerful. But no mutation has ever taken place that makes cows milk more beneficial than a mothers milk.

No selection process has taken place..... no mutations have been induced by the environment as we have already determined that beneficial or harmful mutations are not induced, and are suppsoedly only at random.

We cant change horses in mid stream with every new thread and discount old truths we have already established HERE.

We need to be consistent, and have principles.... not flip flop with every new responses or responses.

The god of selection is dead, because no beneficial mutations have ever occured by chance or by non random selection. She is dead, and beneficial mutations never existed

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2017 8:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2017 10:39 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 178 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:03 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18790
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(4)
Message 170 of 323 (808681)
05-12-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 7:58 AM


Still vapid assertions instead of honest response: Loser
The God of Selection is only alive and selecting if she has beneficial mutations to select from. If there are no benefical mutations and this lie of evolution is realised and admitted, it means the 'God of Selection' can not select from beneficial mutations. Because of her death and non existence, it means she can NOT let some of them live, via her divine selective process using her divine environmental conditions......

So still no logic or evidence to debunk selection ... just more empty assertions. Fail. Loser.

Still no reply to the issues presented to you of actual examples of actual selection. Fail. Loser.

Without beneficial mutations, she dies and is no more, and evolutionists can no longer honor her and pretend she is non random and alive.

Still no reply to the issues presented to you of actual examples of beneficial mutations. Fail. Loser.

And HEREIN we aren't allowed in Propose New Topics to write about the Proofs of benefical mutations existing'

Nope. As clearly stated by Admin your topics are not going to be promoted because you have yet to show any response to the issues, the information, and the evidence that has been raised in this and other threads, to show any errors or mistakes in those posts.

Replying to a posts with more empty assertion is not a response if it ignores and does not discuss the issues and evidence raised in those posts.

Once again, you lose.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 7:58 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 441
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 171 of 323 (808699)
05-12-2017 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by RAZD
05-12-2017 8:16 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
There are several mutations are cause a loss of genetic information but which have a net benefit in particular circumstance. Lactose tolerance is one. So are many cases of antibiotic and insecticide resistance. So to some extent is sickle cell trait.

Since the lactase mutation has disabled part of the regulatory system it is information losing even if it is beneficial; or more correctly it has a net benefit. It is detrimental where there is no access to dairy products which explains why there is a close correlation between dairying and adult lactose tolerance.

Evolution by losing genetic information is downhill and would be a valid argument if you are saying that bacteria evolved from people but it doesn't work if you propose that people evolved from bacteria.

If all you can see is the benefit without also counting the cost then you have a naive view of evolution.

It wasn't Creation.com that was being criticised, it was Discovery Institute. It's not an appeal to authority to simply reference an article on someones website. It is an ad hominem attack to not assess the referenced article because it is on a website you don't approve of. If that is acceptable then I could equally refuse to accept references to talk origins or other sites I don't agree with. I don't do that. I read the article and respond on its merits. I would expect others to do the same.

So only after you have read the referenced articles, try again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2017 8:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 9:51 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 177 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:02 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 179 by RAZD, posted 05-12-2017 11:04 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 181 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-12-2017 11:31 AM CRR has responded

  
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 172 of 323 (808703)
05-12-2017 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by CRR
05-12-2017 9:42 AM


Re: What changes have their been in new babies from old babies ?
So tell us and explain to us, evolutionists how todays babies are different than babies in the past.

Tell us what new beneficial mutations have occured in babies that have been selected by your god of selection, that makes new babies genetically different than old babies or the original human babies.

Dont be afraid just explain yourself, you are in your congregation, so have faith and speak up... and testify about the changes.

Thanks I am hoping to hear from you, and hoping you dont run from this question as per usual.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 9:42 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Taq, posted 05-12-2017 11:04 AM Davidjay has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18790
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 173 of 323 (808709)
05-12-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 8:46 AM


Re: NO mutations away from mothers milk..miracle
Babies were born as is, since their creation.....

An assertion of your personal belief with no supporting evidence provided. Irrelevant to the topic. Fail.

The Lord or if you like their designer designed them ...

Davidjay Message 1: PS) But lets stick totally to biology and science, and maybe math rather than allowing their religious views to enter IN. Thanks

Sad that you can't even comply with your own provisions, to say nothing about complying with forum guidelines (such as Rule 4: Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.)

... able to process mothers milk because it is BY FAR the best for them including the amazing abilities after giving birth, that makes mothers milk absolutely important and vital rather than cow milk and its economic profit from manufacturers.....

Its by design.... no mutation put all those ingeedients in a mothers milk, to help her new born. Please study and learn about procreation and the miracle of birth and mothers milk.

Curiously, nobody has said otherwise. This is just you going off on a tangent instead of dealing with the evidence for selection and beneficial mutations. This is how losers fail.

No mutation has ever taken place, we still are the same as in the BEGINNING.

This is actually false on a couple of levels. First the lactase mutation has been identified and it's selection and spread in the general population has even been mapped. Second your body is undergoing a general process of cell replacement over time, such that you have a new skin every 3 years or so, and other parts every 10 years or so. In the process of cell replication mutations often occur, and this is a source of cancers and other changes.

quote:
Got lactase?
April 2007

In the US and many other countries, we've certainly "got milk," but not everyone can enjoy it. For around 10% of Americans, 10% of Africa's Tutsi tribe, 50% of Spanish and French people, and 99% of Chinese, a tall cold glass of milk means an upset stomach and other unpleasant digestive side effects. In fact, most adults in the world are lactose intolerant and cannot digest lactose, the primary sugar in milk. And yet, regardless of our ancestry, most of us began our lives happily drinking milk from a bottle or breast — so what happened in the intervening time? Why do so many babies enjoy lactose and so many adults avoid it? Lactose is broken down by a protein called lactase, which acts as a pair of molecular scissors, snipping the lactose molecule in two. Anyone who drank milk as a baby carries a working version of the gene that codes for lactase. In lactose tolerant individuals, that gene keeps working into adulthood, producing the protein that digests lactose and makes eating ice cream a pleasant experience. But in people who are lactose intolerant, that lactase gene is switched off after weaning. Now, new research reveals that the Stone Age ancestors of European dairy-lovers probably couldn't digest milk either. So how did they get from bellyaches to milk mustaches? The answer is an evolutionary story that takes us from the milkmaids of the Alps to the Maasai herdsmen of Africa.

Where's the evolution?
Mutations that keep the lactase gene permanently switched on are common among modern Europeans — but not among their ancestors. In March 2007, a team of German and British researchers announced that they went looking for that mutation in the 7000-year-old fossils of ancient Europeans and came up empty-handed. The researchers managed to extract the length of DNA corresponding to the lactose tolerance mutation from eight Neolithic human fossils and one Mesolithic fossil, but those DNA sequences did not carry the telltale mutation. The results suggest that as late as 5000 BC most ancient Europeans could not have digested milk as adults — and that they only later evolved into milk-drinking societies.

Today, the ability to digest milk as an adult seems like a clear benefit, but that wasn't always the case. Lactose tolerance is only advantageous in environments and cultures where humans have access to domesticated dairy animals. Multiple lines of evidence from human genetics, cattle genetics, and archaeological records suggest that Middle Eastern and North Africans populations domesticated cattle between 7500 and 9000 years ago, and that these animals were later brought into Europe. In that cow-friendly environment, being able to drink milk directly (instead of having to process it into lower-lactose cheese) would have been advantageous, providing additional sustenance and, during droughts, a source of water. The lactose tolerance mutation arose randomly (as all mutations do), but once it arose, it had a distinct advantage in these populations. Natural selection would have favored individuals carrying the lactose tolerance mutation, spreading it through ancient European populations that depended on dairying. Many thousands of years later, we see the indirect (but delicious) effects of this mutation's success in European cuisines: oozing French cheeses, Swiss milk chocolate, and creamy Italian gelatos.


Mutations found, documented, identified in different populations, selection for the beneficial mutation is documented in the spread of the gene through much of the general population.

Rather than dead and debunked, the process of mutation and selection is alive and well, operating every day. You Lose.

No selection process has taken place..... no mutations have been induced by the environment as we have already determined that beneficial or harmful mutations are not induced, and are suppsoedly only at random.

Except that the evidence shows, from this and other examples presented on this thread, that selection is happening all around us, continually.

Rather than dead and debunked, the process of mutation and selection is alive and well, operating every day. You Lose.

Yes, GMOS etc from man are screwing up people after birth for economic sake of the rich and powerful. But no mutation has ever taken place that makes cows milk more beneficial than a mothers milk.

We cant change horses in mid stream with every new thread and discount old truths we have already established HERE.

We need to be consistent, and have principles.... not flip flop with every new responses or responses.

The god of selection is dead, because no beneficial mutations have ever occured by chance or by non random selection. She is dead, and beneficial mutations never existed

More meaningless garbage designed to deflect the discussion than to answer the issues of mutations and selection being observed and documented. GIGO and spam.

Rather than dead and debunked, the process of mutation and selection is alive and well, operating every day. You Lose.

You have yet to provide any evidence that would debunk selection, all you do is repeat empty unevidenced assertions of your personal opinions. That is not complying with rule 4 that I can see -- can you explain how it does? Here it is again:

quote:
Rule 4: Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.)

You have failed to provide "reasoned support" your thesis with a single piece of evidence (to say nothing of "additional evidence" ...) in 37 posts so far on this thread. One would think that anyone starting a thread would have objective empirical evidence to substantiate it ... at least in this science forum. Epic failure. Loser.

All you have is assertions and repetition, not evidence. You Lose.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 8:46 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 174 of 323 (808712)
05-12-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by CRR
05-11-2017 5:58 PM


Re: ring species
CRR writes:

Darwin used many examples of animal breeding to support his arguments for natural selection. Since humans are part of nature then deliberate selection by humans is a form of natural selection.

Darwin's point was that there was a natural process that existed outside of human influence that had been operating on species for millions of years which was his explanation for why species were different from each other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 5:58 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 175 of 323 (808714)
05-12-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by CRR
05-11-2017 6:09 PM


Re: ring species
CRR writes:

Mutations can be selected for and fixed in populations . . .

It would appear that you accept natural selection, correct?

. . . but are they information adding?

That is completely irrelevant to the field of biology and the theory of evolution. What I have found is that the process of evolution can produce all of the biodiversity we see today from a universal common ancestor without needing to increase information as defined by creationists. All you guys do is define information in such a way that evolution doesn't need to produce it.

It's a bit like someone saying that a baseball has to travel 1,000 feet before it is considered a home run, all the while forgetting that all it has to do is get over the fence.

Human adult lactose tolerance is an example of a mutation that has spread but has not increased genetic information.

Then evolution doesn't need to increase information as you define it in order to produce the biodiversity we see today.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 6:09 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 176 of 323 (808716)
05-12-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by CRR
05-11-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
CRR writes:

All mammals are born lactose tolerant so they can digest their mother's milk. This normally switches off after weaning. Human adult lactose tolerance is simply a case of a broken switch. http://creation.com/lactose-intolerance.

Then broken switches, as you define it, can result in evolution.

"This is the story of a pre-existing enzyme with a low level of promiscuous nylonase activity, which improved its activity toward nylon by first one, then another selectable mutation. In other words this is a completely plausible case of gene duplication, mutation, and selection operating on a pre-existing enzyme to improve a pre-existing low-level activity, exactly the kind of event that Meyer and Axe specifically acknowledge as a possibility, given the time and probabilistic resources available. Indeed, the origin of nylonase actually provides a nice example of the optimization of a pre-existing fold’s function, not the innovation or creation of a novel fold." https://www.evolutionnews.org/...agination-and-facts-collide

Then evolution doesn't need novel folds for every adaptations. Thanks for yet another example of evolution in action.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 9:35 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 177 of 323 (808717)
05-12-2017 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by CRR
05-12-2017 9:42 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
CRR writes:

There are several mutations are cause a loss of genetic information but which have a net benefit in particular circumstance. Lactose tolerance is one. So are many cases of antibiotic and insecticide resistance. So to some extent is sickle cell trait.

Then this means that evolution can occur with losses in genetic information, as you define it. So much for needing an increase in genetic information.

Evolution by losing genetic information is downhill and would be a valid argument if you are saying that bacteria evolved from people but it doesn't work if you propose that people evolved from bacteria.

You would also argue that human evolution went downhill as it proceeded from our ancestor shared with chimps. Evolution can also occur while going downhill, as you define it.

You can't seem to understand that you are just defining yourself out of the argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 9:42 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 178 of 323 (808718)
05-12-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 8:46 AM


Re: NO mutations away from mothers milk..miracle
Babies were born as is, since their creation.....
The Lord or if you like their designer designed them to be able to process mothers milk because it is BY FAR the best for them including the amazing abilities after giving birth, that makes mothers milk absolutely important and vital rather than cow milk and its economic profit from manufacturers.....

Its by design.... no mutation put all those ingeedients in a mothers milk, to help her new born. Please study and learn about procreation and the miracle of birth and mothers milk.

No mutation has ever taken place, we still are the same as in the BEGINNING.

Yes, GMOS etc from man are screwing up people after birth for economic sake of the rich and powerful. But no mutation has ever taken place that makes cows milk more beneficial than a mothers milk.

No selection process has taken place..... no mutations have been induced by the environment as we have already determined that beneficial or harmful mutations are not induced, and are suppsoedly only at random.

We cant change horses in mid stream with every new thread and discount old truths we have already established HERE.

We need to be consistent, and have principles.... not flip flop with every new responses or responses.

The god of selection is dead, because no beneficial mutations have ever occured by chance or by non random selection. She is dead, and beneficial mutations never existed

Still not a single coherent argument against natural selection. Go figure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 8:46 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18790
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 179 of 323 (808719)
05-12-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by CRR
05-12-2017 9:42 AM


Re: Lactase and Nylonase
There are several mutations are cause a loss of genetic information ...

How do you know? How is that "information" measured and quantified?

So only after you have read the referenced articles, try again.

Or you could read Irreducible Complexity, Information Loss and Barry Hall's experiments and get back to me.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by CRR, posted 05-12-2017 9:42 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6799
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 180 of 323 (808720)
05-12-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 9:51 AM


Re: What changes have their been in new babies from old babies ?
Davidjay writes:

So tell us and explain to us, evolutionists how todays babies are different than babies in the past.
Tell us what new beneficial mutations have occured in babies that have been selected by your god of selection, that makes new babies genetically different than old babies or the original human babies.

Dont be afraid just explain yourself, you are in your congregation, so have faith and speak up... and testify about the changes.

Thanks I am hoping to hear from you, and hoping you dont run from this question as per usual.

Tell us why you think we find black mice in areas with black lava rocks and brown mice in areas with brown desert dirt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 9:51 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 11:33 AM Taq has responded

  
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