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Author Topic:   Is it "Politically Correct"...
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 151 of 195 (817621)
08-18-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
08-18-2017 11:09 AM


Re: I guess fairness isn't going to happen on such subjects
Isn't possible to denounce both according to you?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 08-18-2017 11:09 AM Taq has responded

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 152 of 195 (817636)
08-18-2017 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by New Cat's Eye
08-18-2017 10:32 AM


quote:

See for yourself: https://youtu.be/hqQXmnMr_w8

Do you have evidence this small group is affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement? Nobody else seems to have any from what I can tell.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 153 of 195 (817639)
08-18-2017 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
08-18-2017 9:33 AM


Since the year 2000 here is the complete list of every single person killed by police in the UK:

Edson Da Costa
Khalid Masood
Yassar Yaqub
Lewis Skelton
Josh Pitt
Dalian Atkinson
William Smith
James Wilson
Jermaine Baker
Richard Davies
James Fox
Dean Joseph
Anthony Grainger
Mark Duggan
Kingsley Burrell
Jimmy Mubenga
Olaseni Lewis
Keith Richards
Ian Tomlinson
Mervyn Tussler
David Sycamore
Andrew Hammond
Sean Rigg
Habib Ullah
Mark Saunders
Dayniel Tucker
Ann Sanderson
Terry Nicholas
Robert Haines
Steven Colwell
Philip Marsden
Craig King
Jean Charles de Menezes
John Mark Scott
Azelle Rodney
Simon Murden
Nicholas Palmer
Philip Prout
Keith Larkins
Derek Bennett
Andrew Kernan
Patrick O'Donell
Kirk Davies

The UK has 20% of the USA population, yet your police kill more than 5 times this number....per year than the UK incidents over nearly two decades - so when you ask:

I don't see what the cops themselves could have done differently in any of those situations. Do you?

I have to suppose that there were plenty of things that could be done differently.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 9:33 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 7:43 PM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 154 of 195 (817641)
08-18-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Modulous
08-18-2017 7:18 PM


That's meaningless, Mod, without knowing the circumstances in each case. Five of the seven examples I gave were justifiable or accidental or the result of fear on the cop's part, one of the remaining two was criminal negligence, the other was outright murder. Mere numbers don't tell us much.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Modulous, posted 08-18-2017 9:08 PM Faith has responded
 Message 156 by JonF, posted 08-19-2017 8:57 AM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 155 of 195 (817643)
08-18-2017 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
08-18-2017 7:43 PM


That's meaningless, Mod, without knowing the circumstances in each case. Five of the seven examples I gave were justifiable or accidental or the result of fear on the cop's part, one of the remaining two was criminal negligence, the other was outright murder. Mere numbers don't tell us much.

They show that UK cops manage to keep law and order without as many 'accidental', 'justifiable' or 'fearful' killings - by many orders of magnitude - so clearly regardless of one's lack of knowledge in how things could be handled better, there certainly seems to lots of room for improvement. That's what the 'mere' numbers tell us.

http://news.sky.com/...us-cops-how-to-avoid-gun-use-10151069

quote:
Sky News cameras joined them as they went out on patrol in Glasgow, and watched as unarmed police dealt with a variety of potentially violent situations.

The four-day visit showed how Scottish police step back from confrontation, using shields and vehicles for protection.

They also saw examples of how in Scotland officers use language and negotiation in a different way to their American colleagues.


quote:
Many American forces adopt what is informally known as the "21-foot rule".Some see the controversial tactic as a 'licence to kill'.

Scots firearms officers have shot civilians only twice in the last decade.

The last officer to be killed on duty through criminal violence in Scotland was in a stabbing in 1994.



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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 156 of 195 (817664)
08-19-2017 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
08-18-2017 7:43 PM


That's meaningless, Mod, without knowing the circumstances in each case. Five of the seven examples I gave were justifiable or accidental or the result of fear on the cop's part, one of the remaining two was criminal negligence, the other was outright murder.

And none of them had anything to do with your claim that BLM is a violent organization.

You got nuttin' but hate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 7:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 9:02 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 195 (817665)
08-19-2017 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by JonF
08-19-2017 8:57 AM


I wasn't specifically addressing the question of BLM violence, just their utter lack of justification for their whole project, even just demonstrating against the cops, in the examples they themselves point to as their justification.

As for violence, NCE has posted some evidence of their shouting about killing cops. That's on the same level as the white supremacists shouting about the evil Jews. As for actual violence and murders I'll have to dig that up.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 158 of 195 (817666)
08-19-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Modulous
08-18-2017 9:08 PM


It's usually not fair to compare two such entirely different social situations as the UK and the US.
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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 159 of 195 (817667)
08-19-2017 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
08-19-2017 9:02 AM


I wasn't specifically addressing the question of BLM violence, just their utter lack of justification for their whole project, even just demonstrating against the cops, in the examples they themselves point to as their justification.

As American citizens they are entitled to have and voice (legally) their opinions.

As for violence, NCE has posted some evidence of their shouting about killing cops. That's on the same level as the white supremacists shouting about the evil Jews

It's worth pointing out that there were no BLM chants of "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now."
Chants Encounter

There was a protest at which they chanted "pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon". The organizer had a pretty feeble explanation. I certainly condemn such actions. "Pigs in a blanket" chant at Minnesota fair riles police

But you need to establish a pattern in BLM and their actions, not one or two isolated incidents.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 160 of 195 (817734)
08-19-2017 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
08-19-2017 9:13 AM


It's usually not fair to compare two such entirely different social situations as the UK and the US.

The question is - what can be done to alter the social situation in the US to make it so less people die. If there was a September 11th magnitude attack every 9 years - I'm sure you'd be calling for changes to be made to protect American lives. That's how many are dying now - and evidence suggests that it isn't necessary. I'm not suggesting mere changes in police tactics will make the two countries identical in police related killings and deaths but that the present situation can be improved by changing how police approach their work.

The senior police officers in the documentary agreed with me. And indeed:

quote:
In an interview with the Dallas Morning News in 2015, Brown said that the decline in complaints about use of force come from more regular, realistic training, greater community outreach, and an emphasis on “de-escalation,” where police try to slow to slow the action down and avoid using force. Rather than running into a situation, take your time approaching a suspect, talk over a strategy with your partner. Have just one officer talk with a suspect — rather than multiple people shouting — try to build a rapport with with suspect. It’s not just Dallas, the Morning News reported; excessive force complaints have also fallen in Seattle, Baltimore, and New York, among other major American cities. In Seattle, the New York Times reported last year, all of the city’s officers are “taught to ask open-ended questions, paraphrase what a person has just said so that he or she knows the officer is listening, and make statements that connote empathy with the person’s situation.” If officers do those things, the reasoning goes, they’ll have less of a need for force. Las Vegas has also emerged as a pioneer in de-escalation, with the department making a commitment to the “sanctity of life.”

nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/07/deescalation-policing-works.html

quote:
Brown believes the Dallas training has also led to a 30 percent decline in assaults on officers this year, and a 40 percent drop in shootings by police.

https://www.dallasnews.com/...e-complaints-drop-dramatically

quote:
“These shootings by and large are not the officers’ fault,” said Chuck Wexler, executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF), the Washington think tank pushing the new program. “They’re doing what they’re trained to do. We have to change that training. We have to give them more tools to slow things down. It’s a change in culture, a different way of thinking.”

And so at the largest national police event of the year, the annual convention of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, in San Diego, Wexler is staging a town hall Sunday where he expects 500 big-city police chiefs to express their support for retraining officers to “de-escalate” and take a “tactical pause” when encountering subjects who do not present an immediate threat.


quote:
“We’ve created a culture in policing where officers believe repositioning is retreating,” said Camden County, N.J., Police Chief J. Scott Thomson, PERF’s board president. “And that we need to resolve situations as quickly as possible. And sometimes that may be the approach. But if we take a more deliberate approach, particularly when individuals don’t have firearms, we’re finding there are less incidents of use of deadly force.”

Thomson pointed to a recent incident in Camden in which a man with a knife menaced people in a restaurant, then walked into the street and began swinging the knife at others. Officers walked alongside the man for blocks, waiting for the right moment to wrap him up and disarm him.

“I can unequivocally say,” Thomson said, “six months before our training, we would’ve shot and killed that guy. It would have been a justifiable use of deadly force, but there was another way to handle it.” Since Camden began a “Guardian Culture Program” in July 2015, its officers have responded to more than 2,400 calls for armed persons, made 370 arrests and had only one officer-involved shooting, which Thomson said occurred during an ambush.


quote:
Between training and modified policies over the years, New York police went from shooting 994 people in 1972 to 79 people in 2014. The unit’s trainers helped PERF create its training.

“It saves lives,” said Chief Barry M. Barnard of Prince William County, Va., who has appointed a captain at his county’s police academy to instill the “PERF 30.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/...85-ac42097b8cc0_story.html

For many of the controversial cases where we see video footage come out - there is the unusual habit of drawing a weapon early, and yelling. As officers say - there often times when a person is killed and it is called justifiable, but where other methods have been used and no lives are lost. The latter is clearly preferred.

So when you ask - what could the officers do differently? I think there is an answer, as do others. Evidence shows that it works. Whether it is not getting into situations where one feels compelled to use lethal force in the first place, or learning how defuse those situations as they develop before lethal force gets on the menu.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 9:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 1:25 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 195 (817739)
08-19-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Modulous
08-19-2017 12:51 PM


Sounds good to me, hope the methods spread. Wonder why such reasonable tactics haven't already become universal.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 195 (817763)
08-19-2017 10:36 PM


Boston
Something called a "free speech rally" in Boston by Trump supporters was interrupted by the usual mob of crazed Leftists falsely calling it racist. BLM was there, Antifa was there, throwing stuff including urine, and free speech was squelched, not racist speech because as far as I've been able to find out it wasn't white supremacists, it was just some Trump supporters who are not racist. If that is the case then it is just the latest in Leftist fascist tyranny by today's version of the brownshirts who are the real racists these days. But as I say it's hard to find out what it was really all about. The MSM didn't even mention the involvement of BLM and Antifa, I found that at You Tube, but haven't listened to any of it yet. Who organized the rally for what purpose I haven't yet found out except that it is called a Trump rally.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 195 (817771)
08-20-2017 6:26 AM


Laguna Beach
I wouldn't have known about this except I have a relative who lives there and mentioned it in an email. According to her, protestors are being bussed in to Laguna Beach. Anti-"racist" protestors apparently, I guess to squelch another moment of free speech planned for tomorrow. Then I found a news story about it. So again we've got protestors against, not white supremacists, in this case just Americans who want to call attention to crimes committed by illegal aliens. Can't do that, it's "racist." Can't rule our own borders, that's "racist." And they apparently get paid to go wherever anyone thinks otherwise and prevent them from saying so.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 185 by caffeine, posted 08-21-2017 1:41 PM Faith has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 164 of 195 (817778)
08-20-2017 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
08-19-2017 10:36 PM


Re: Boston
Bullshit. I live in the area and saw all the videos. The Trump supporters were escorted through the peaceful crowd and held their rally with counterprotesters held about 50 yards away by fencing. Nothing resembling a weapon was allowed in the area, including flagpoles,

There was a little roughhousing and at least one punch thrown. But nobody drove a car into a crowd.

Free speech was not squelched. The few free-speech protesters held their rally uninterrupted and unbothered. Their rally was held in the granite structre at the middle right below, and the counterprotesters were kept far away:

as I've been able to find out it wasn't white supremacists

Haven't looked very hard, have you?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/...TdKhl9up3osadFfUzK/story.html

The MSM didn't even mention the involvement of BLM and Antifa

Bullshit.

http://www.cnn.com/...us/boston-free-speech-rally/index.html:

quote:
A coalition of mostly left-leaning groups and activists such as the Black Lives Matter movement organized Boston's counterprotest.

http://www.wcvb.com/...upremacy-rally-boston-common/12036148:

quote:
At the same time, the "Fight Supremacy" march began to reach the area with 10,000 or more participants who were led into downtown from Roxbury, by organizers including Black Lives Matter and the Mass Community Action Network.

http://www.wcvb.com/...-plan-to-attend-boston-rally/12035047:

quote:

A small number of member of the Ku Klux Klan are planning to attend a controversial rally Saturday on Boston Common. ... He added the Klan members’ presence would likely go unnoticed.

...

Meanwhile, the Boston Chapter of the leftist group known as Antifa called on its members to "confront fascism" at the Free Speech rally.



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JonF
Member
Posts: 3960
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 165 of 195 (817779)
08-20-2017 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
08-20-2017 6:26 AM


Re: Laguna Beach
According to her, hum?

Got any actual evidence?

Of course not.6

ABE: I did a pretty thorough search and couldn't find any trace of such. Nothing like spreading unsupported rumors, right?

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 08-20-2017 6:26 AM Faith has responded

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