Psychology looks at atheism and theism. Also, atheism is tenuous/non-existent/rare ..

Okay. I'll play along with this asshatery for a second.Anyone who believes in God... tell me what God is. What do you believe in?I'm not asking for what God did, I'm asking for what God is.When you can identify what we're all supposed to be believing in, then we can wonder who does or doesn't. Until then, telling us we really do believe in it is asinine... I don't even know what this "God" thing I'm being told I believe in is supposed to be. How could I believe in it?You might as well tell me that deep down, I believe in askljaelkejr.No, don't go asking what an askljaelkejr is. Just prove you don't believe in it too.

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"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women."
-Stewie Griffin

TO: MikethewhizIf crashfrog's "proof" is valid, then crashfrog must recognize that God speaks to Christians via the Holy Spirit.In other words crashfrog would need to accept:1. The Holy Spirit guides me.2. I exist.3. Therefore the Holy Spirit guides people.Crashfrog in addition to adopting some "Minnesota nice" skills (He lives in Minnesota. I lived there for 7 years), is required to actually address the information I presented but even better he should present some information of his own supporting professed atheist and their actual existence as well. I am skeptical he can based on my personal experience with professed atheist or agnostics which admittedly have not all been bad overall. I have other reasons as well based on the Scripture I have mentioned for example but that would be beyond the scope of this thread.Sincerely,Ken

correction:I wrote:

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I am skeptical he can based on my personal experience with professed atheist or agnostics which admittedly have not all been bad overall.

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I meant to write:I am skeptical he can based on my personal experience with professed atheist or agnostics which admittedly have not always been bad with some individuals in a general sense. I still call a professed atheist/agnostic in Minnesota. Perhaps he is a friend of crashfrog! LOL

No, he would need to accept:1. You believe that the Holy Spirit guides you.2. You exist.3. Therefore there are people who believe that the Holy Spirit guides them.Whatever this "Holy Spirit" thing is supposed to be, that is.

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"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women."
-Stewie Griffin

Mike the Wiz writes:

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SO I'm with Ken - prove you're an atheist. You have so far offered no evidence.

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I think it is reasonable that I think you proclaim atheism because of your own dissatisfaction with God, and you deep down know that God exists. You must wake up from these delusions that God doesn't exist, that regularly comfort you, despite your deep subconscious realization of God's existence. It's time to face this unavoidable reality. You have to stop this "comfort" reasoning which is emotional, and stop taking comfort from hoping death is the end.

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Holy shit. It's a testament to how little shame you have, Mike, that you would concoct a diatribe like this. Even those of us inclined to let people have their quirks must be shocked at the arrogance, the utterly unselfconscious foolishness of this feeble rant.It's one thing to believe that everything that happens is the product of an inscrutable design. It's quite another thing to believe that not only is there a big invisible magic guy in the sky who we'll only see after we die, but also that anyone who claims he doesn't believe in Him is an irrational, hyperemotional, mendacious, delusional idiot.I guess when you spend a lot of time reading a book where people get made out of dust or rise from the dead, the sun stands still in the sky, and ancient boats chock full of jungle animals survive cataclysmic floods, your critical thinking skills suffer. And that doesn't make you a bad person, Mike, just not one who should be taking folks to task for being unfairly incredulous.So I'm with Doubting Thomas, okay, Mike? They might be more blessed who believe and yet have not seen, but I'll settle for seeing and then we'll talk.regards,
Esteban HambreThis message has been edited by MrHambre, 09-02-2004 06:12 PM

TO: MrHambreDoubting Thomas believed when he had evidence. He later became a martyr. So far the evidence presented here would not exactly cause Doubting Thomas to want to be a professing atheist. Nor have the professed atheists given any data contrary in this regard. In addition, they have not presented any compelling evidence that those who profess atheism are genuine in their lack of belief there is a God especially in a somewhat let alone unwavering capacity.Sincerely,Ken

Mr Hambre. Your recent attacks of believer's worldview instead of concentrating on your own one, speak volumes. I recall not having a "rational leg to stand on". This is exactly what I'm talking about - with all the skydaddy and fairytale input I wanted, when I chose my bait this morning. My response to Schraff was in protest of her denying that atheists use the natural and science against God. If you and your buddy Dawkins aren't proof enough then I'll eat my socks. Thanks for proving my point; And I don't believe in design, it's evidenced everywhere. Listen, I apologize if I offende you but quite clearly this IS an emotional response to what I basically endure most days at atheist/secular forums. Let? Pardon me, but who are you to let me do anything? Is this planet Hambre? I don't recall needing your permission to have wisdom.Yet a little while, and I'll let you be atheist.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-02-2004 08:06 PM

Kendemyer, what data do you need to be convinced that atheists exist?

TO: chiropteraAgain, I gave some examples in my initial post as far as what evidence I would deem reasonable. I do realize that the third example is not likely and I threw it out as more as humour given that I knew this threads info would cause some professed atheist like crashfrog (see post #60) to be upset. Sometimes a little levity is helpful.Secondly, I also gave studies and data which would suggest that nobody who looking at the data would want to be an ardent professor of atheism.Third, have you visited the locker room forum at TWEB?Sincerely,Ken

re: my previous postI wrote:

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Secondly, I also gave studies and data which would suggest that nobody who looking at the data would want to be an ardent professor of atheism .

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I should have wrote:Secondly, I also gave studies and data which would suggest that nobody who looking at the data would want to be one who often professes atheism.Addendum:I wrote the phrase "professor of atheism". I realize that there are only professors of theology at universities and theology degrees. There are no atheism departments to my knowledge at universities. So you cannot get a cap and tassle for a "atheism degree". The devil is bold but he is smart enough to sneak in the back door.Sincerely,Ken

Is this what you are talking about?From your OP: Although it is possible that you would require one of these items on your list to convince you that atheism exists, they don't seem all that reasonable to me. Do you really require this sort of evidence for every belief that you hold? Or is atheism somehow a special topic for you?I certainly believe that you are sincere in your beliefs, and I even accept that you doubt the existence of atheists. And I do so without thinking about Christian martyrs, without demanding any polygraph tests, and without regard to any studies or the pontification of any authorities. I accept that you believe in God, that you doubt the existence of atheists based solely on your testimony. Am I foolish to do so? Should I be more skeptical of your beliefs?

to: chiropteraPlease consider context. The evidence presented in my initial post suggest that professed atheist have no real backbone to their atheism and are quite illogical and irrational. So why wouldn't I need a high level of evidence to counteract this data.Secondly, are you being consistent to the ideology of skepticism? It seems the ideology of skepticism would expect that a high quality of data would be necessary to show that atheists exist. In fact it would demand this. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too regardless of the inconsistency.Sincerely,Ken

TO: chiropteraAdditional thoughtsI do recognize that humanity struggles with behaving irrationally.King Solomon eloquently wrote: "Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead."So I would argue that I do not find it surprising that men often behave irrationally. Sin has a way of doing this.I also recognize that pride is often a sin that besets those who are adveraries of God and this makes them act in a foolish manner. I would therefore expect many militant professed atheists to be prideful. Hence I am not suprised by Dan Barker, Dawkins, and the Brights who flaunt their "superior intellects". I also think it is obvious that pride often makes men act irrationally. In short, I think the brights/freethinkers need to take a long hard look at themselves.

I am quite literally stunned. I have read the content of this forum for some time and felt no need to comment (Well, once, but a computer problem resulted in such a lengthy absence I abandoned the account). The unreasoning stances of creationism are quite effectively pointed out by many others but on this, I must speak up.The idea that there are no such thing as Atheists for the reason Kendemeyer (sp?) gives is rank arrogance of the worst kind. Listen closely, K., and I will try to make it clear. I don't care what you believe. You can wail out your childish entreaties to your mythical god all you want. You are hurting only yourself, so go ahead.What I will not tolerate without challenge, you self important ass, is the claim that you know my mind. You do not know my mind and never can. The very idea that all people must think as you do, K., is astounding in its sheer bravado. I simply have to agree with you deep down because you are so manifestly right? No. I do not and you are not.The fact is this: I am an atheist. I exist. That's all it takes, as others have pointed out. Your argument from disbelief that we must be wrong because you simply don't believe our assertion is a load of bull. You don't know what I or any of the other Atheists on this board think or believe. Claiming that you do only makes you out to be a fool.I am an Atheist. I exist. Screw you.

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Oh come on Schraff. All the proclaiming unbelievers I know think that God has something to do with fairytales/delusions. EVERY proclaiming unbeliever I have met mentions naturalism and the irrational position of "belief".

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OK.What does that have to do with science being the "reason" people don't believe in God?Naturalism and science are not the same thing.

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At no time has a proclaiming unbeliever "seen" any design, apart from poor design, despite the fine-tuning of the universe.

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So what?Just because the universe does not appear to be supernaturally designed doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

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Hence the wild and desperate multiple universe theories.

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Yes, I am sure the Cosmologists who hypothesize about such things are desperate, crazed people on the verge of mental collapse because they aren't Christians just like you.

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All my experience has shown me these basic positions; "But we've found out now how we came to be, through evolution, God didn't make us"..(This is a regular proclaimer's argument I've came across)

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Well, that's fine, but that isn't relevant to the [/b]athiests I know[/b].

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Other well conjured and vastly superior arguments(lol) include "sky daddy" and "your dependent on emotion rather than intellect"....Lmao.

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Are you assuming that the only possible way to believe in God is the way you do?There is much to ridicule in some of the ways some Christians characterize their God, you know.

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SO I'm with Ken - prove you're an atheist.

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Why would I try to do that when I'm not an athiest?

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You have so far offered no evidence.

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Prove you're a Christian.

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I think it is reasonable that I think you proclaim atheism because of your own dissatisfaction with God,

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I'm not dissatisfied with God.How can I be dissatisfied with that which I don't know exists or not?How can I be dissatisfied with that which I have no reason to believe I could ever comprehend, even if it does exist?

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and you deep down know that God exists.

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Stop with the patronizing, arrogant bullshit, mike.Who the fuck are you to tell me what I believe?

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You must wake up from these delusions that God doesn't exist, that regularly comfort you,

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They comfort me?How do they do that?

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despite your deep subconscious realization of God's existence. It's time to face this unavoidable reality. You have to stop this "comfort" reasoning which is emotional, and stop taking comfort from hoping death is the end.

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If you think that realizing that death is most likely "the end" is comforting, you haven't ever really contemplated it.