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Author Topic:   God and Satan
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 6 of 110 (490796)
12-08-2008 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
12-08-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Re God and devil
God claimed to create evil. The devil is evil.
Therefore God created the devil to be the devil he is.
Why would an omnipotent, omniscient perfectly good being create evil?
How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?
If I were to choose to create a bomb that I intended to be, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?
How is the creation of Satan different?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 1:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-08-2008 5:03 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 6:11 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 18 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 10:50 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 110 (490808)
12-08-2008 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
12-08-2008 6:11 PM


Re: Re God and devil
=StragglerWhy would an omnipotent, omniscient perfectly good being create evil?
That is easy if there was no evil, man would have no choice.
Are all human choices between good and evil? Can you substantiate this claim?
Does evil really need to exist for choice to exist?
Can choices exist without the existence of evil?
Are not most choices in life completely devoid of an evil option?
Straggler writes:
How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?
If I were to choose to create a bomb that I intended to be, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?
How is the creation of Satan different?
Can you answer this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 6:11 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 8:20 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 110 (490907)
12-09-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
12-08-2008 8:20 PM


Re: Re God and devil
Good and evil would have to exist to have a choice between good and evil.
Why is there a need for that choice?
There is plenty of choice and freewill in life possible without the existence of evil.
Why knowingly create evil?
First thing, the devil is not responsible for any decision man makes.
Second thing God is not responsible for any decision man makes.
So there is no way to compare to your example.
But God is responsible for the possibility of evil. Why allow that possibility? Why create that particular choice?
Why would God be evil for creating evil?
Knowingly creating evil not an act of evil? Is this true just for God or for anything that knowingly creates evil? Can you explain your reasoning further?
Scientist developed a drug called vioxx which killed untold thousands of people.
Are those scientist evil?
Hospitals in the US were responsible for an average of 195,000 preventable, in-hospital medical errors in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Info
Are hospitals evil?
BTW heart disease and cancer were the only causes of more deaths than the Hospitals.
I don't think these examples of human stupidity are quite the same as an omnipotent, omniscient (supposedly perfectly good) being intentionally creating evil.
My question remains - Why would God create the possibility of evil? Why create that choice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 8:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2008 12:25 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 20 of 110 (490908)
12-09-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Bailey
12-08-2008 10:50 PM


Re: When all is One
Straggler writes:
How is the creation of Satan different?
The one who made the bomb did not allow it a choice to ...
* bestow untold Love and charity on innocent victims.
* become a bomb that would not explode.
* do what it wanted.
It was a tyrant.
An omniscient God knew the choices that creation (i.e. Satan) would make. Why create that being knowing that outcome unless God wants evil to exist?
Why does God want evil to exist?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 10:50 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Bailey, posted 12-10-2008 7:33 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 110 (491046)
12-11-2008 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Bailey
12-10-2008 7:33 AM


Re: Abortions ok sometimes ...
Is enforcing your own undivided rule communistic or appropriate?
Or both; appropriately communistic when motivated by seeking to destroy evil.
No need to destroy it if it was not created in the first place.
Straggler writes:
Why does God want evil to exist?
He does not.
Yet, without evil, we cannot know good.
What is distinguished when all is One?
He created not evil, but Love; yet it identifies Him.
Hmmmm. Is not God the creator of all things? Including evil?
Easier to "blame it on the man".
Human moral authority allows it.
Why do we love it so much?
Easier maybe. But does this hold up?
Are you saying that there was no evil before man?
If there was evil before man then man cannot be blamed for the existence of evil.
If God created all then it really doesn't make any sense whatsoever to claim that he did not also create evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Bailey, posted 12-10-2008 7:33 AM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Bailey, posted 12-11-2008 9:33 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 24 of 110 (491047)
12-11-2008 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ICANT
12-10-2008 12:25 PM


Re: Re God and devil
Straggler writes:
Why is there a need for that choice?
Good question. Explaining the answer is tough.
Without a choice between good and evil there would have been no sin. (Disobedience to God's command.)
Without sin there would be no death.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
An omnipotent God could create a world where death was not necessary. Or a world where sin was not necessary. Surely heaven is such a place? Why necessitate sin? Why necessitate death?
Your answer does not hold up.
I get the feeling if there was no death this planet would have been over populated a long time ago. Unless a certain number of humans and creatures had been created without the ability to reproduce.
But God made it that way. He did not have to make it that way. Why would he do so? Unless he wants evil to exist for it's own sake.
Straggler writes:
There is plenty of choice and freewill in life possible without the existence of evil.
But there would be no choice between good and evil.
Yes. That is the point. Why necessitate a choice between good and evil? Unless God wants evil to exist for it's own sake.
Straggler writes:
Why knowingly create evil?
It was necessary.
If it is necessary it is only necessary because God made it necessary. Why make evil necessary unless God wants evil to exist for it's own sake?
Straggler writes:
But God is responsible for the possibility of evil. Why allow that possibility? Why create that particular choice?
God did not create the possibility of evil.
God created evil. He created the devil and his angels.
Do you agree that God also create the necessity for evil?
Straggler writes:
My question remains - Why would God create the possibility of evil? Why create that choice?
You may ask the question but you don't want the answer.
Yes I do.
Trying to explain why God would do something to you is like trying to describe a beautiful sunset from the west coast of Florida to a person who has been blind from birth.
That person would have no concept of what you were trying to say as they had never seen what you are talking about.
You do not believe God exists.
You do not believe the devil exists.
The only evil you believe exists is what you believe to be evil.
But let me give explaining to you my best shot although you will probably remain just like the blind person understanding the sunset.
God created everything that there is.
Before He did that He viewed the end and decided the project was worth the cost.
Why did there have to be a cost? Why would God create everything such that there must be a cost? Such that there must be evil?
Now what you are asking me to do is reveal the mind of God to you.
Give you answers to questions that He does not give a clear answer too.
Since God's thoughts and mine differ so much I feel a little inadequate to the task but I will give you what I believe, from my 60 years of studying and walking with God.
OK. But in your 60 years of study have you ever asked yourself the question as to why God created a world that needs evil in the first place?
In all my life I have never met a person that did not want to be loved for who they are.
Since man is created in the image of God I will assume He has that desire also.
The only way that can be accomplished is if the one doing the loving is free to love by choice.
God created beings, creatures that worship Him constantly. Rev. 7:15.
God created the devil and his angels to give man a choice.
God created man and placed him in a paradise and gave him a choice.
Man could choose to live and walk and talk with God or choose to disobey and be separated from God and die.
That man chose to eat the fruit and die with his wife rather than to live in the garden with the serpent and be able to walk and talk with God.
Making it possible for billions of humans to be able to choose to love God and serve Him just because He is God.
That also made it possible for you to not believe in God and worship Him and serve Him.
But now that man was separated from God there needed to be a way man could be restored to fellowship with God.
God provided the way a man could receive a full pardon and be restored to fellowship.
All a person has to do is accept God's provisions.
So to answer your personal question, "Why create that choice?"
So Straggler could have a choice of believing in and trusting God.
Or,
So Straggler could choose to believe there is no God.
I do indeed choose that. But is that evil? Are things really so black and white? And if they are presumably God made them that way.
There are many that I do not love. Many that by and large, rightly or wrongly I am indifferent to. But I still do not wish them ill. I will not revel in their suffering. In fact I wish them well if I even think of them at all.
Why cannot the choice be to accept and love God (as you presumably do) OR to disbelieve and be indifferent to God (as I do)? Why necessitate evil?
Why must evil in the form of enjoying suffering, intentional harm and wickedness exist at all?
I dispute the necessity of evil. If evil exists it is because God wills it so and if evil is necessary it is only because God wishes it to be necessary.
If there is a God then he is as at least as evil as he is good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2008 12:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 12-11-2008 10:39 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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