Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Man

Ray Martinez:Where does any Near East kingdom record defeats ?Only the Bible records the defeats of its subject the Israelites = proof supporting Divine control of content.Where does ANY Near East kingdom record a victory during the Biblically determined reign of David ? [1018 to 978 BC].None exist because the Bible is correct in stating that David ruled the Near East.The lack of a claimed victory during David's reign corroborates the Scriptural record of David's reign and territory.Where is any Near East nation victory recorded which contradicts a Biblically determined date of a victory for Israel ?EGYPTOLOGY SETS UP A STRAW MAN:Egyptology: Where is any Egyptian record testifying to the Plagues or Exodus ?Question only asked because none exist.Question assumes such evidenciary text or inscription would exist IF the Biblical account were true.Where does ANY Near East nation record a defeat ?They don't, unless in the context of a victory being cited and even then it is rare and obviously compared to the Scriptural records defeats are numerically non-existent.Why would Egypt record the greatest defeat of all time ?Who would need to record for fear of not remembering that which destroyed their nation ?They didn't because there is no basis for any Near East nation ever recording defeats.Therefore, Egyptology has set up a straw man (Egyptian records SHOULD exist if the Exodus account is true), in order to falsify the Biblical account of the Plagues and Exodus based on a known false assumption that Near East nations record defeats.Because Near East nations do not record defeats - the lack of ANY Egyptian records or texts or inscriptions to this end strongly confirms the Exodus account detailing the greatest defeat ever suffered by a Near East nation. shortened url to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 05-16-2005 10:06 PMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-16-2005 08:18 PMPromoted from PNT by AdminNosyThis message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-17-2005 07:02 PM

According to the straw man set up by Egyptology it does.Persons familiar with the status of this age-old debate know:The "refutation" of the claims of the book of Exodus comes via the question, "Where in Egyptian texts are the Plagues/Exodus ?"The question begs the answer.The question ASSUMES if the events were true there would be Egyptian records.Persons who ask "the question" KNOW there are no Egyptian records of the said events.Persons who ask "the question" set up a straw man - that which doesn't exist in order to assert the non-existence supports the Exodus narrative as myth.Persons who ask "the question" know that no Near East nation records any defeats.Persons who ask "the question" ask the question because the question assumes that which does not happen (defeats being recorded) would happen.Where are defeats recorded so we can see a pattern ?Where does Egypt record ANY defeats ?I can show you "one" but I won't. Egyptologists and their disciples say the lack of Egyptian records of the Plagues/Exodus evidence against the Bible.You cannot have it both ways.The Bible says Egypt was "destroyed".Egypt is not mentioned - not even once through-out the Judges interval, all the way to Shishak.......well that is another issue. Randy:Have you bought the rhetoric of Holmes ?IIRC you are a teenager ?A teenager supporting porn......But then again the quote and your use of it is poker.Ray/Willowtree.

What I said, as you know, or anyone for that matter, if they were to scroll back and read the OP, was: there are no Egyptian texts, or inscriptions/bas reliefs, or records of ANY defeats in ANY ancient Near East era. If the latter was unclear it is clear now.Also, I have no interest in your research project, which appears to be a sidetrack.Can you produce ONE inscription from ANY Near East nation recording a defeat ?I can show "one" Egyptian, (like I mentioned in the OP) but I will not do your job for you. Because the Torah strictly forbid graven images ?But you are evading the clear indictment of the OP:Except for Israel, Near East nations do not record defeats.The question asking for Egyptian corroboration of Exodus narratives assumes Egyptians record defeats - WHERE ?Of course I am assuming the Plagues/Red Sea is the greatest defeat of all time (if true), but implacable opponents can assert contrary in defiance of all logic anyhow.I will get back to your Question #4 ASAP.RM

Evidence ?....or how about an argument ?....I already know your opinion which the OP decimates. Agreed. Your question assumes Egyptian sources as the ruler by which truth is determined.Do ANY records survive the Lower Delta c.1850 - 1450 BC ?How much evidence exists supporting the Seventh to the Tenth dynasties ? But of course nobody will question their existence. The Nile flooding the entire region and the nitrous soil, coupled with the ravages of time account for very little archaeological evidence for anything.All that is known about Egypt comes from Upper, which makes your query above the same type of straw man exposed in the OP.IIRC there were 250,000,000 bison killed in the New World since the arrival of Europeans, yet anyone would be hard pressed to accumulate a foot locker amount of their remains.Maybe another reason the Lower Delta yields very little physical remains is the same reason why alleged hominid fossils are an embarrassing diminutive inventory compared to the extraordinary claim ?RM

Hi Brian:I see by your avatar you have gotten cuter and fuzzier - its hard to get it all at the same time. I assigned the origin of this "question" to EGYPTOLOGY: "Where in Egyptian texts or records is evidence of the Plagues/Exodus ?"I have been in a lot of debates, and read a lot of websites where this rhetorical question is asked.As we know there are none. No - not quite.What I said was the rhetorical straw man question assumes that if the Plagues/Exodus were true, there would be Egyptian records in corroboration.THEN, in rhetorical response I ask, "Where does Egypt (or ANY Near East nation) record ANY defeats ?Of course, I assume the Plagues/Exodus/Red Sea (if true) a massive defeat. Off-hand I cannot.But "solely" is strict and unbending so I will concede this point.I must go off line - I will finish ASAP.RMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-18-2005 04:12 PM

If you don't mind lets just focus on Albright.Could I trouble you for the definitive quote ?RM

Hi Phatboy:Ray M.: There is no basis for any Near East nation ever recording defeats.Phatboy: Is this really true? Where did you learn about this?Ray M.: I learned this when attempting to confirm claimed Israelite victories by first seeing if any Near East nation claimed a victory for the same date.Ray M.: Egyptology has set up a straw man (Egyptian records SHOULD exist if the Exodus account is true), in order to falsify the Biblical account of the Plagues and Exodus based on a known false assumption that Near East nations record defeats.Phatboy: Do you mean that there is a motive behind it all?Ray M.: Of course.

For the sake of argument, these things and many others one could reasonably assume would happen, especially the last item. Jar, your quote above is just too presumptuous and slippery.
Who are the "these" in your quote ?Also, IF you are arguing absence = did not happen, then of course you know this is a two-way street.Your quote above seems to assign evidenciary status and value to all records except the Biblical record. Maybe you could clarify ? Except for describing Exodus as "myth" and Egypt "remains" - I agree. Because Egypt was destroyed.There is no mention of Egypt through-out the Judges interval (approx. 350 - 400 years). This supports the destruction. I assume these assertions are based upon an early dating of the Amarna correspondence. Velikovsky thoroughly refuted this in 1952.RM(sorry Ray, I hit edit instead of reply)This message has been edited by AdminBrian, 05-21-2005 06:24 AM

For your information:I have been answering replies in the chronological sequence that they were posted.There may be exceptions, but for the most part this approach will continue.I inform you of this to forestall anyone from mistakenly assuming that they are being ignored.Also, this topic is not about the Exodus. Veteran debaters know a narrow topic subject is best. My topic is about one rhetorical question and why it is asked and what basis of evidence exists to ask it.While the Exodus is certainly relevant it cannot be used to shift the focus away from my narrow subject as layed out in the OP. Please tether your Exodus points and arguments to the OP.EvC has recently hosted a mega-600 post (?) Exodus debate where I and many other principles here participated. If it is time to debate the Exodus again then I am all for it and will participate.Newbies should review the Exodus debates recently "finished" and figure out your unsupported assertions carry no weight and will be treated as such.Brian of Scotland and a few other opponents represent the established scholarly opposition and I suggest newbie opponents to know their place until they establish their place.RM

Return to the OP and click on the weblink. The site explains it.The Deuteronomy passage (and others like it) is confirmed in the link.RM: Why would Egypt record the greatest defeat of all time ?Arach: i don't think i would call it the greatest defeat of all time.RM: The Plagues destroying Egypt and the Egyptian army drowning in the Red Sea not the greatest defeat (if true) of all time in the ancient Near East ?Yeah, I guess in defiance of all logic nothing can stop you from asserting this anyway. Yes, and the Bible supports this time duration and identifies these foreign rulers as Hebrews - the birthright children of Judah - the Zarahites.When a Pharoah rose up "who knew not Joseph" c.1580 BC these Hyksos/Zarahites were driven from Egypt leaving their brethern to face slavery.Secular history refuses to identify the Hyksos because the ONLY source which does (the Bible) is summarily rejected out of personal bias not wanting the Scriptural record seen as true lest the Deity is also subsequently substantiated as existing and controlling history.The Bible perfectly frames and identifies the Hyksos to be successors of Joseph.The well established Hyksos expulsion date of c.1580 BC [source: Gordon, Common Backround of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations, 1965] is perfectly supported by Biblical chronology.Arach, the Egyptian/Hyksos defeat records is valid, as is another one not relevant at this time.But the point of the OP is that for the most part Egypt and all Near East nations do not record defeats, and with this being fact it is a preposterous straw man to ask where in Egyptian sources is the Plagues and Exodus.If a person could show even a scant pattern of defeats being recorded then my point fails. Okay, I'll take this in isolation as recognizing my point.RM: The lack of ANY Egyptian records or texts or inscriptions to this end strongly confirms the Exodus account detailing the greatest defeat ever suffered by a Near East nation.Arach: doesn't follow: false dichotomy.RM: Baffling illogical assertion especially in lieu of your "admission" above.RM

I claimed all types of sources as is seen by saying "records, texts, inscriptions etc.etc."You are hung up on inscriptions.But the point is where are any defeats recorded ?Please show me defeats from any source outside of the Bible. Why Paulk ?Care to at least explain your assertion ?You are resorting to the exact same type of straw man: "Where are Hebrew inscriptions ?"This assumes there should be.The Torah as pointed out forbid graven images. In that thread I also abandoned Rutherford's arguments about Amarna.Your quote above relies on inaccurate representation of my position.

And there we have archaeological evidence of Hebrews in Egypt. The Hyksos foreign rulers were Zarahites and unless you have contrary evidence the Scriptural record is the best source identifying the Hyksos.I also find it incredulous that Manetho is selectively embraced only where he cannot be construed to support the Bible, in that his definition of Hyksos as "Shepherd Kings" is wholly corroborated in Genesis and conspicuously ignored by secular. Genesis 47:3

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And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.And when Joseph died the birthright to rule went to Zarah (Genesis 38) as confirmed by Jacob in Genesis 49:10. Hence; "Shepherd Kings". I never argued this.What I said was the chronic flooding and the nitrous soil of the Delta is the reason the region yields a dearth of archaeological remains.RM

RM: IIRC there were 250,000,000 bison killed in the New World since the arrival of Europeans, yet anyone would be hard pressed to accumulate a foot locker amount of their remains.Ringo: Bad example. I can show you well over a "foot locker amount" of bison remains just within a few miles of my house. When I was a kid, you could still find the bones lying around on the prairie and, even today, the museums are full of bones, skins, etc.Ray Martinez: You live in the Soviet Union. My quote specified "New World" I will await your clarification.RM

No I was not.I believe it is understood we are talking about official sources and not private accounts like the Ipuwer papyrus.Of course, Ipuwer does confirm the book of Exodus.And to my Darwinian opponets it is funny how you all can deduce obscure fossil scraps to be anthropon transitional but the Ipuwer papyrus and its compatibility with the Plagues in Exodus suddenly escapes your understanding LOL !RM

No.Egypt existed c.1850 to 1450 BC.About c.1580 BC Hebrew rulers were tossed from power leaving their brethern to face slavery.1453 BC all the way through the Judges interval Egypt is non-existent in the Bible as a power.Only when Thutmose III appears in 1Kings 14:25 do we know that this massive duration of time was the amount needed for Egypt to recover from the devastation of the Plagues, Red Sea, and subsequent centuries of foreign domination.RM