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Author
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Topic: Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Man
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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not spot on.
Deuteronomy 28:25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies The above passage is what Moses told the Israelites would happen to them if they forsook God and worshipped idols. The link below evidences from external sources how the above passage became true. The best one is Jehu bowing down to Shalmaneser III (5th picture scroll down) this was a bit of a willowtree post. i'd missed it the first time around, back in october. the thread is closed, otherwise i would have posted there, but i'll change the topic slightly to match this thread. but where does the bible record jehu's defeat?
Where does ANY Near East nation record a defeat ? the bible sure does. lots of times. but ONLY when it fits the message they are trying to deliver. in the case of jehu, even though he permits the sin of jeroboam (having another temple), the author of kings likes him. he kicks the foreigners out, dissolves alliances, and trashes idols. and because of the first two, he LOSES to the assyrian invaders. but that would be totally contradictory to the point of kings. they want you to believe that outside influence is bad, and that god is on your side if you remain pure and don't allow idolatry. and his defeat would have proved the contrary. so they left it out.
Why would Egypt record the greatest defeat of all time ? i don't think i would call it the greatest defeat of all time. and as for egyptians recording defeat, sometimes they did. for instance, they recorded that they were ruled by an outside (semitic) people for nearly 400 years. but that may have only been because in the end, they kicked them out rather triumphantly. but you're basically right. egyptians are not knows for their exceptional record keeping practices. while they WROTE good records, many things tended to get editted out -- like king tut.
the lack of ANY Egyptian records or texts or inscriptions to this end strongly confirms the Exodus account detailing the greatest defeat ever suffered by a Near East nation. doesn't follow: false dichotomy. just because there are no records of it doesn't mean it happened. they have no records of flying pink elephants that sang show tunes either.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 24 of 302 (209504)
05-18-2005 8:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
05-18-2005 8:24 PM
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ray, my challenge still stands.
Ray Martinez writes: Maybe another reason the Lower Delta yields very little physical remains is the same reason why alleged hominid fossils are an embarrassing diminutive inventory compared to the extraordinary claim ? quote:
Where is the corresponding archaeological evidence of the Exodus?
a while back, i gave ray a challenge based on the same claim. he said:
Ray Martinez writes: "Fossils, though few and rare, are by for the most important evidence we have of hominid evolution." Evos scream about a lack of evidence of Israel in the Sinai but the paucity of transitional hominid fossils is given a sweetheart exemption to which i responded:
me writes: you're reading it wrong. what's "few and rare" mean? well, let suppose few and rare means .001% of everything that every lived. that would mean that of the human being alive today, we'd have more that 60 thousand examples. of every homo sapien that ever lived, we'd probably have a few million examples. now, we don't have that many, and that's few and rare! "few and rare" does not mean "damned close to nothing." now, in reality, we may only have a few thousand examples of anything remotely human. fossils of non-modern non-homo-sapiens, i mean. sometimes only one partial example of each species, but often a dozen or more fossils. sometimes, whole burial sites. the fact that there are only a "few" fossils does not mean they just made stuff up, it means we're not inundated with them. now, here's the challenge:
myself writes: as for israelite in sinai or egypt, unless they're the hyksos, we have next to nothing to show they were there. a few words of egyptian origin in the language (proves nothing) and a hebrew letter or two carved in stone somewhere. i can show you a skull of an austrolpithicus, can you show me the skull of an israelite in egpyt? a few posts later, after posting a skull of a transitional hominid, i said:
i writes: now please reply with an example of a hebrew artifact found in egypt or sinai. we'll take turns. i post a fossil or artifact, you post a fossil or artifact. whoever fails to post one loses. so ray, my challenge still stands. the score is 3-0, my favor. you have yet to even show the evidence i myself suggested in my original challenge. start of the old topic: http:// EvC Forum: Are there any "problems" with the ToE that are generally not addressed? This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-18-2005 08:45 PM
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by ringo, posted 05-18-2005 8:24 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: Let's examine this idea.
There is no mention of Egypt through-out the Judges interval (approx. 350 - 400 years). This supports the destruction. really? during that time, they had seti 2, who suffered the loss of the nile delta, and sethnakht who kicked them out. they also had ramses 3 - 11, and were breifly conquered by the assyrians (like most everybody else in that part of the world). now, did you mean no mention IN THE BIBLE? because seti 2 was a pretty prominent pharaoh. [edit]it's generally accepted that if the exodus occured, it happened around 1250 bc, under the reign of ramses 2. judges is not a chronological book. the dozen or so judges in the book appear to rule non-unified tribal states in israel, not ALL of israel. as such, they interact with each other non-linearly. like in a movie where things are happening at the same time, but they can't show you both at once. as for:
Do ANY records survive the Lower Delta c.1850 - 1450 BC ? yes, the hyksos ruled most of egypt for a good portion of that time. but this was 200 years BEFORE the exodus. This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-18-2005 09:14 PM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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book chapter verse!
Return to the OP and click on the weblink. The site explains it. no no, where IN THE BIBLE does it record jehu's defeat? book, chapter, verse?
The Deuteronomy passage (and others like it) is confirmed in the link. no, actually, it's not. see,
quote:
2Ki 10:28 Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.
jehu was NOT an idolator. he didn't support idolatry. therefor, the deuteronomy verse does not apply to him: he was on the other side of that battle. so why did he lose?
RM: Why would Egypt record the greatest defeat of all time ? Arach: i don't think i would call it the greatest defeat of all time. RM: The Plagues destroying Egypt and the Egyptian army drowning in the Red Sea not the greatest defeat (if true) of all time in the ancient Near East ? Yeah, I guess in defiance of all logic nothing can stop you from asserting this anyway. no, the greatest defeat of all time was in 480 bc, when 7000 greek men forced the persian army of 250 THOUSAND to retreat TWICE at thermopyl, and retreated themselves holding the entire army at bay with just 300 men. 250 thousand defeated by 7 thousand, twice. and then stopped by a mere 300. that's.... pretty great, if you ask me. and actually, it's not even the greatest defeat egypt ever suffered, either. they were ruled by both the hyksos and assyrians. a bunch of slaves getting away to the desert and drowning some chariots is not that impressive by comparison to a foriegn power ruling one of the greatest nations in the world.
Yes, and the Bible supports this time duration and identifies these foreign rulers as Hebrews - the birthright children of Judah - the Zarahites. no, i was refering to the hyksos. who were not hebrew. and i got the time period wrong, it was only about 250 years. and if they WERE hebrew, the bible has it backwards. the hyksos ruled egypt, and there kicked out by the egyptian army to chased them all the way to canaan.
When a Pharoah rose up "who knew not Joseph" c.1580 BC these Hyksos/Zarahites were driven from Egypt leaving their brethern to face slavery hmm, i don't see that bit in exodus. and considering it only ever refers to pharoahs, i don't think you have a case.
Secular history refuses to identify the Hyksos because the ONLY source which does (the Bible) is summarily rejected out of personal bias not wanting the Scriptural record seen as true lest the Deity is also subsequently substantiated as existing and controlling history. the bible identifies the hyksos? book, chapter, verse?
But the point of the OP is that for the most part Egypt and all Near East nations do not record defeats, and with this being fact it is a preposterous straw man to ask where in Egyptian sources is the Plagues and Exodus. If a person could show even a scant pattern of defeats being recorded then my point fails. quote:
Arach, the Egyptian/Hyksos defeat records is valid
the hyksos defeated the egyptians. we have a record of it.
Okay, I'll take this in isolation as recognizing my point. context.
RM: The lack of ANY Egyptian records or texts or inscriptions to this end strongly confirms the Exodus account detailing the greatest defeat ever suffered by a Near East nation. Arach: doesn't follow: false dichotomy. RM: Baffling illogical assertion especially in lieu of your "admission" above. uh, perhaps you should look up "illogical" in a dictionary. my "assertion" was actually based on logic. follow along: if nobody records the chess games they lose, and there is no record of this chess match occuring, then the game must have been lost. it doesn't follow, because, you see, if the game never occured, it also would not have been recorded. there are also a myriad other reasons the game might not have been recorded. for instance, maybe the record was misplaced. or hasn't been found yet. anscence can NEVER prove existance. [edit] also, my challenge still stands: show me a hebrew artifact found in egypt, and i'll show you a transitional hominid fossil. the score's 3-0, my favor. This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-19-2005 03:47 PM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 51 of 302 (209773)
05-19-2005 8:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by jar
05-19-2005 5:12 PM
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Canukistan is that country populated by american draft-dodgers and frenchies just north of here?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by jar, posted 05-19-2005 5:12 PM | | jar has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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We have extensive evidence of Hebrews in Egypt c.938 BC. ray, the score's 3-0. if you keep bringing up the point, i'll keep reminding you. you have yet to show me a single shred of archaeological evidence for hebrew people in egypt.
We have Hyksos evidence and their identification as Zarahites. where is the identification? also, you failed to answer my question. where does the bible record jehu's defeat at the hands of shalmanessar 3? This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-19-2005 08:19 PM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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ray, you're arguing that something doesn't exist that not only clearly does, but with someone who's an eyewitness. also, you're avoiding my challenges.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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buffalo bs.
Since when does evidence not count ? IOW, we have to take someones word on it ? Come on Arach you have been around long enough to know this is as bullshit as bullshit gets. it would be, maybe, if we were dealing with the loch ness monster or bigfoot. they're not exactly mythological creatures.
Where is evidence of the millions of bison killed by New World Europeans ? There is scant if not trace amounts because they have disintegrated over time. are you serious? aside from the fact that buffalo exist in north america, and we have bones and gravesites, as attested to above, and pictured here, and aside from the fact that a whole industry popped up finding uses for all of the bones, and aside from the fact that the government commissioned the slaughter to battle the natives, and aside from the fact that teddy roosevelt himself wrote about how to hunt bison and references their near mass extinction:
quote:
The rapid and complete extermination of the buffalo affords an excellent instance of how a race, that has thriven and multiplied for ages under conditions of life to which it has slowly fitted itself by a process of natural selection continued for countless generations, may succumb at once when these surrounding conditions are varied by the introduction of one or more new elements, immediately becoming the chief forces with which it has to contend in the struggle for life. Theodore Roosevelt (1858—1919). Hunting Trips of a Ranchman. 1885.
CHAPTER VIII -- THE LORDLY BUFFALO
and aside from all of the records we have, such as statistics (such as government estimates of buffalo population down to just a few hundred in 1885) and, you know, aside from the photos of things like this hideyard in kansas in 1878. (note the caption: 40,000 buffalo hides)
shit, wait, what your point again? what more do you want? do you want me to mail you some buffalo bones? would that help?
But you are asserting we must take a debaters word on it. no, i just find it funny that you're challenging something as not existing to a person who's just said they grew up surrounded by it. tthat's like arguing the public school system doesn't exist.
Does this academic standard apply to Christology claims by Christians ? depends. were you an eyewitness to exodus?
And I am not avoiding you. Your major challenge is off-topic. Please save it for another time because it is a very good issue. no, it's not actually. the hominid bit is off-topic, sure. but the request for proof of hebrew occupancy of egypt is not. you're asserting it happened, record or not. there should be SOME proof. hell, i'll even grant you that they took their dead with them. but surely, someone left a pot or a jar or something. but tell you what. i'll modify my challenge. i'll show you a dead bison for every hebrew artifact found in egypt. that puts you about 100,000 behind from just the two pictures i posted here.
Please give me time to catch up with your other replies. alright. then just answer this question: where in the bible does it record the story of king jehu of israel's defeat at the hands of shalmanessar 3?
Please note that Brian and I have a running understanding in place when we debate: Slow responses = busy schedule - nothing else. Can I get you to sign on to the same agreement ? no, you can't. i've asked you three simple questions. 1. where is the least bit of archaeological evidence for hebrews in egypt? 2. where is the identification of hyksos as zaharites? (in the bible or otherwise) 3. where is the biblical record of jehu's defeat? you've claimed to have support for all three, but have not shown any. if you want to forgo the first one and a half for now, sure. that requires some archaeological research. but for the biblical aspects, you have your bible and blueletterbible.org to search it. and it's not that hard. you've taken at least that ammount of time to respond here. so where in the bible does it mention hyksos or jehu losing? This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-19-2005 11:12 PM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: book chapter verse!
I never claimed the Bible records Jehu's defeat. you said, in the op:
quote:
Only the Bible records the defeats of its subject the Israelites = proof supporting Divine control of content
the proof of the divine control of content of the bible is that it records the defeat of its subjects, unlike other all other near-east cultures. am i misrepresenting you here? you cited this as an example:
quote:
The best one is Jehu bowing down to Shalmaneser III (5th picture scroll down)
but the bible does NOT record this event. so where is your proof of divinely controlled content? isn't suspicious that it's missing?
The link shows what Shalmaneeser made Jehu do which confirms the Deuteronomy passage (and others). i'm quite familiar with this steele. but it doesn't confirm anything in the bible. for instance, the inscription, as your link even indicates, says "jehu, son of omri." got a bible handy? who was jehu's daddy?
The Bible says Jehu departed not from the sins of Jeroboam. the sin of jeroboam is this: having a temple outside jerusalem. according to deuteronomy 12, this is a greivous sin. but what was israel to do when it became a separate nation? send all of it's citizens to jerusalem every saturday? sounds like a lot of work! also, many, many other temples existed prior to josiah. so jehu is being held to a standard that only existed AFTER his death, and the "discovery" of the book of deuteronomy.
2Kings 10:29 Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan while we're throwing the idolatry charge about.
quote:
Exd 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
so israel was expected not only to not have a temple of its own, but it was held to a double standard. they have calves their mercy seat -- that's bad. but judah can have winged babies, and that's ok. i fail to see how one is different than the other. in fact, i fail to see any evidence that ANY mesopotamian society ever worshipped their idols. their idols served one of three purposes: 1. representation of the offering. a permament offering made of valuable materials. 2. representation of the offeree. classic big-eyed babylonian idol. places in the temple as an image of the person doign the offering, so they could do other stuff too. 3. a vehicle for the god. mesopotamian gods are always aniconic: you can't depict them. yahweh is one such god. but since other similar cultures (like india) tend to place their gods standing or sitting on animals as a vehicle, sometimes just the vehicle itself is depicted, and the god is said to be on top of that depiction, or idol. sound like the mercy seat to you? if judah's idol is ok, what's wrong with israel's?
The Torah says Jacob and 70 souls went down to Egypt after Pharoah exalted Joseph. His successors were the birthright off-spring of Judah. and that makes them hyksos how exactly?
c.1580 BC the Egyptians defeated the Hyksos/Shepherd Kings leaving their brethern the children of Israel in slavery until the Exodus in 1453 BC. a fanciful hypothetical. but unsupported.
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| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by lfen, posted 05-20-2005 2:40 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 69 of 302 (209864)
05-19-2005 11:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
05-19-2005 10:16 PM
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Re: Don't have a cow, man.
If you want documentation, ask for it. (I seriously doubt that anybody else reading this would question the existence of bison remains.) You brought up the lack of bison remains as a parallel to the lack of physical evidence supporting the Exodus. I pointed out that there are, in fact, plentiful bison remains. By your own parallel, therefore, there ought to be plentiful physical evidence supporting the Exodus. i posted some pictures. it's his move now, the score's about 100k to 0, in terms of bison v. hebrew artifacts from egypt.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by ringo, posted 05-19-2005 10:16 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 70 by lfen, posted 05-19-2005 11:52 PM | | arachnophilia has not replied | | | Message 71 by ringo, posted 05-19-2005 11:52 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 72 of 302 (209872)
05-19-2005 11:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
05-19-2005 11:52 PM
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Re: Dem bones....
In case anybody's interested, here are a few bison references: references, pft. words lie. he doesn't believe in modern eyewitness accounts, let alone HISTORY. let's see if he likes pictures. pictures can be pretty convincing.
I'm waiting with bated breath. in all seriousness, i really am. i want really want some archaeological evidence of hebrews in egypt.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by ringo, posted 05-19-2005 11:52 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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jacob's seventy souls
agh! i can't believe i didn't catch this the first time. i would have editted it, but this deserved it's own response. regarding the identity of the hyksos:
The Torah says Jacob and 70 souls went down to Egypt after Pharoah exalted Joseph. His successors were the birthright off-spring of Judah. jacob = israel. the 70 people are listed in genesis 46. they are jacob, and his sons. not counting their wives, but counting jacob. so it's not jacob AND 70 souls, it's 70 men, including jacob, joseph, joseph's two sons, and joseph's eleven other brothers and their sons. thus, all of the 70 listed in the bible were sons of israel: israelites. the people who left in the exodus. genesis 46 even contains the prophesy of the exodus: "i myself will go down to egypt with you, and i myself will bring you back." this is markedly different from the hyksos, who invaded en masse and took over. how can you assert this? have you even read genesis and exodus? This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-20-2005 12:09 AM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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the mods might want to take a look at this.
ray is making accusation against me. let's examine them.
1) Gross and continued distortions of my position, arguments, and evidence such as? ray is arguing that the bible records the defeat of its authors, and cited an example not in the bible. he's citing a lack of evidence for the bison slaughter of the late 1800's in north america, aftyer being shown evidence. he's insisting that evidence that DOES exist does not, and that absence of evidence is evidence.
2) Deliberate spamming of the debate with indefensible illogic and juvenile rhetorical points and questions. i'm not allowed to examine the ramifications of his assertions?
3) Intelligence insulting rhetoric and evasion of arguments. ray has consistently evaded my questions and concerns.
4) Posting evidence allegedly supporting his assertions of which do no such thing, like a supposed picture of bison remains. ray asserted that little to no evidence exists of the bison slaughter. i mentioned records, guides to hunting buffalo, eyewitness reports (from a board member no less) of remains, pictures of remains today, and a picture of some remains at the time. why is some quote saying there's not much left more valid than the cold hard facts that we have LOTS of proof it happened?
5) Continued off-topic derailments. like the bison ray brought up?
6) Horrible spoiled brat yuppie trash attitude. excuse me?
Nobody can defend or debate with this obscene trolling going on. no, ray, there is lots of debate going on. when some brings up major problems with your argument, it's not "trolling" it's "debating."
I strongly urge everyone who supports Arach and his self-proclamation as victor to boycott this debate as proof that you agree with him. I concede all points to Arach. Read my words: I concede all points to Arach. so you admit you're wrong about the nonexistance of buffalo remains and proof of the slaughter of the plains as a comparison to the nonexistance of proof of hebrew in egypt?
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| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by CK, posted 05-20-2005 4:12 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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The point is that Near East nations except for Israel do not record defeats. I am begging to be falsified. Show me defeats being recorded ? egypt being conquered by the hyksos, and then the assyrians.
They very well know Egypt does not record defeats. see above. it's not that ancient near east nations did not record defeats, the did not record things that were contrary to their viewpoints, or regarded as problematic. for instance, egypt struck amenhotep 4 (akhenaten) and his son tutankhamun from the record, after tut was dead. had nothing to do with defeat -- they just didn't like his monotheistic rule.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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destruction of egypt
This is 101 stuff. I have no desire to teach a Sunday School lesson in basic Bible. uh, yeah, when was egypt destroyed? i mean, granted, raining fire and killing all of the firstborn sons is pretty nasty indeed, and drowning bunch of army guys is a pretty good defeat -- but the entire country wasn't destroyed. i have a feeling that the passover wasn't the worst god could dish out.
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