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Author Topic:   Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 46 of 150 (136398)
08-23-2004 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
08-23-2004 5:56 PM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
So, you are saying that you do not believe that Jesus is God?
Or, are you being a polytheist???
Because if Jesus is just an aspect of God (the aspect of the son), then my point stands.
If you think that Jesus is god, but not the trinity is not one god, then you are a polythiest.
Which one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 08-23-2004 5:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 1:09 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 47 of 150 (136399)
08-23-2004 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Aurelie
08-23-2004 5:59 PM


Re: God displeased with sacrifice?
Actually, If you bother to read Isaiah 53 IN CONTEXT, you will see that Isaiah is specifically speaking about the nation of Israel, in THAT time, not somebody getting born 600 years plus in the future.
As for psalm 22, that is a purposeful mistranslation, and also it was "retrofitted" into being a prophecy that it was not meant to be.
More information about psalm 22 can be found
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq057.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Aurelie, posted 08-23-2004 5:59 PM Aurelie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Aurelie, posted 08-24-2004 4:13 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 150 (136436)
08-24-2004 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by ramoss
08-23-2004 9:24 PM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
So, you are saying that you do not believe that Jesus is God?
Or, are you being a polytheist???
Jesus, being the son of God is worthy of worship and deity, but not God the father. He does not sit on the throne of God in Heaven but on the right hand of the father, according to the text. He stated someplace in John 14 that "My father is greater than I." Paul also said somewhere in I Cor 15 that after Jesus subdued all things under his feet that he would again subject himself to God (the father) that God would be "all and in all." So we see in scripture this clear distinction between the son and the father. That's how the trinity works. So to answer your question, I am not a polytheist and Jesus is not on God's throne as God. He will, according to the prophecies sit on the throne at Jerusalem here on earth soon for a full millenium. He never referred to himself as God but referred to his father as God. In John 14 he did make this statement, "I and my father are one," but he also said he is one with one with us, both referring to being of the Spirit of God which makes them one in the Spirit and ditto with us who are born again of his Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ramoss, posted 08-23-2004 9:24 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 08-24-2004 2:49 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 51 by ramoss, posted 08-24-2004 1:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 49 of 150 (136460)
08-24-2004 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
08-24-2004 1:09 AM


Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
Say you are out mowing the lawn. You look up and see the Sun. 92 million miles away. The light is shining all on you, however, and the heat is 87 degrees! 3 different things. The Sun. The light. and the heat. Yet the light comes from the Sun, as does the heat. 3 different things yet all from one source. Just like the Nicene Creed explains:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 1:09 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 11:33 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 52 by ramoss, posted 08-24-2004 1:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 150 (136532)
08-24-2004 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
08-24-2004 2:49 AM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God,........
With all due respect for the Nicene Creed, the above portion if it, imo, is somewhat confusing and clouds the understanding as to the trinity and how it functions. For example, "God of God?" Meaning what? It's not put that way by Jesus himself and the apostles in the NT. This creed, after all is words of man. I like to keep it the way it is put in scripture and leave it at that so as not to confuse. This kind of rhetoric lends to some of the talk of polytheism, etc by critics as we see in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 08-24-2004 2:49 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 1:19 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 51 of 150 (136556)
08-24-2004 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
08-24-2004 1:09 AM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
That was nice avoidance of the question.
Is Jesus part of the 'godhead' (i.e. trinty), or is Jesus a seperate god, or is jesus just 'the son of god', but not god?
In any case, if you consider Jesus not part of 'God', (which makes you very non-mainstream), the statement could be modified to show that is still as rediculous as what I said previously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 1:09 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 52 of 150 (136557)
08-24-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
08-24-2004 2:49 AM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
It doesn't seem like people who profess themselves to be christian can agree on who Jesus is.
When you get a concensus, come back to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 08-24-2004 2:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 150 (136560)
08-24-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
08-24-2004 11:33 AM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
Simple question.
Is Jesus GOD or is he a separate individual?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 11:33 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 11:22 PM jar has replied

  
Aurelie
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 150 (136602)
08-24-2004 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ramoss
08-23-2004 9:31 PM


Re: God displeased with sacrifice?
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't see how that could be talking about the nation of Israel, verses 4-9 especially.

Whenever people agree with me, I always feel that I must be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ramoss, posted 08-23-2004 9:31 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by lfen, posted 08-24-2004 4:35 PM Aurelie has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 55 of 150 (136609)
08-24-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Aurelie
08-24-2004 4:13 PM


Re: God displeased with sacrifice?
The passage alluded to by Matthew, for as a quotation it is false, is in Isaiah, liii, 4, which is as follows: "Surely he [the person of whom Isaiah is speaking] hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows." It is in the preter tense.
Here is nothing about casting out devils, nor curing of sicknesses. The passage, therefore, so far from being a prophecy of Christ, is not even applicable as a circumstance.
Isaiah, or at least the writer of the book that bears his name, employs the whole of this chapter, liii, in lamenting the sufferings of some deceased persons, of whom he speaks very pathetically. It is a monody on the death of a friend; but he mentions not the name of the person, nor gives any circumstance of him by which he can be personally known; and it is this silence, which is evidence of nothing, that Matthew has laid hold of, to put the name of Christ to it; as if the chiefs of the Jews, whose sorrows were then great, and the times they lived in big with danger, were never thinking about their own affairs, nor the fate of their own friends, but were continually running a wild-goose chase into futurity.
To make a monody into a prophecy is an absurdity. The characters and circumstances of men, even in the different ages of the world, are so much alike, that what is said of one may with propriety be said of many; but this fitness does not make the passage into a prophecy; and none but an imposter, or a bigot, would call it so.
Isaiah, in deploring the hard fate and loss of his friend, mentions nothing of him but what the human lot of man is subject to. All the cases he states of him, his persecutions, his imprisonment, his patience in suffering, and his perseverance in principle, are all within the line of nature; they belong exclusively to none, and may with justness be said of many.
But if Jesus Christ was the person the Church represents him to be, that which would exclusively apply to him must be something that could not apply to any other person; something beyond the line of nature, something beyond the lot of mortal man; and there are no such expressions in this chapter, nor any other chapter in the Old Testament.
It is no exclusive description to say of a person, as is said of the person Isaiah is lamenting in this chapter, He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before his shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. This may be said of thousands of persons, who have suffered oppressions and unjust death with patience, silence, and perfect resignation.
Grotius, whom the Bishop [of Llandaff] esteems a most learned man, and who certainly was so, supposes that the person of whom Isaiah is speaking, is Jeremiah. Grotius is led into this opinion from the agreement there is between the description given by Isaiah and the case of Jeremiah, as stated in the book that bears his name.
If Jeremiah was an innocent man, and not a traitor in the interest of Nebuchadnezzar when Jerusalem was besieged, his case was hard; he was accused by his countrymen, was persecuted, oppressed, and imprisoned, and he says of himself, (see Jer. xi. 19) "But as for me I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter."
I should be inclined to the same opinion with Grotius, had Isaiah lived at the time when Jeremiah underwent the cruelties of which he speaks; but Isaiah died about fifty years before; and it is of a person of his own time whose case Isaiah is lamenting in the chapter in question, and which imposition and bigotry, more than seven hundred years afterwards, perverted into a prophecy of a person they call Jesus Christ.
OLD TESTAMENT "PROPHESIES" OF JESUS PROVEN FALSE I--Thomas Paine
http://www.deism.com/paine_essay03.htm
I don't know if Thomas Paine was the first to write of the way the author of the Gospel of Matthew claimed as prophecy of Jesus passages from the OT that on examination are something else entirely, but he has done a very clear methodically job of debunking those claims.
I've yet to find an apologist who point by point offers a refutation of Paine's criticism.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Aurelie, posted 08-24-2004 4:13 PM Aurelie has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 150 (136650)
08-24-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
08-24-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
Is Jesus GOD or is he a separate individual?
He, Jesus, is the son of God, Jehovah, his father who sits on the throne of Heaven and Jesus, the son of God is a separate individual from his father, Jehovah. His father, Jehovah remained sitting on the throne of Heaven when Jesus, the son of his father Jehovah was on earth. By the same token, he, Jesus, the son of his father Jehovah is a separate individual from his father as the two reside way out there in a place called Heaven, a literal physical locality in the universe. He sits on the right hand of his father who sits on the throne of the universe in Heaven. PRAISE BE TO JEHOVAH, GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, AND PRAISE BE TO HIS HOLY SON JESUS WHO WILL SOON SIT ON THE THRONE OF DAVID ON EARTH IN JERUSALEM ON MOUNT ZION, THE TEMPLE MOUNT!!!!
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-24-2004 10:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 1:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 11:25 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 58 by ramoss, posted 08-24-2004 11:27 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 150 (136651)
08-24-2004 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
08-24-2004 11:22 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
So you are a polytheist?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 11:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 11:33 PM jar has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 58 of 150 (136653)
08-24-2004 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
08-24-2004 11:22 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
Ok. you reject the concept of the trinity, and the concept that Jesus is God.
So, modify my original statement to say 'God sent his son down to earth to seriously inconvinence him for three days so everyone can live forever' in my previous rant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 11:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 08-24-2004 11:36 PM ramoss has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 150 (136656)
08-24-2004 11:31 PM


The Holy Spirit the common spirit of both the father and the son is multipresent, meaning he can be anywhere in the universe the father sends him. He is not only the spirit of both the father and the son but the spirit of the father and the son which indwells in the very bodies of all who are born of the spirit of Jesus and the father via receiving Jesus, the son of Jehovah his father as our saviour and lord/master. When are you going to receive this wonderful salvation, Jar so you too can have his spirit in your body permeating and enlightening your soul and mind?

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 150 (136657)
08-24-2004 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
08-24-2004 11:25 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
So you are a polytheist?
You need to recount, my friend. How many gods do you count in my post?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 11:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 11:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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