Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins

Because in the garden before anyone ever sinned, God pronounced the death penalty on sin/disobedience to God's laws. He told Adam that the day he sinned/disobeyed he would die. He sinned and on that day he suffered spiritual death and separation from God and his garden.Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sins, it shall die...."The first thing God did after Adam sinned was kill an animal and made a covering for Adam and Eve, signifying sacrificial atonement. The first children of Adam offered sacrifice, indicative that their father also did. God told Abraham to take Isaac his son up for an atonement sacrifice. Then God revealed how this was an illustration from God of the eventual sacrifice of his own son, Jesus. When Isaac asked his father where the sacrifice was, Abraham told him, "God will provide himself a sacrifice." God provided a lamb caught in the thicket and eventually provided the once and for all perfect sacrifice, Jesus the perfect sinless "lamb."Since God pronounced the death penalty on sin, either every sinner must die physically as well as spiritually or someone innocent of sin must die in the sinner's place. Jesus filled that capacity and satisfied the justice of Jehovah God, majesty of the Universe.

PD, like others are trying to tell you, you're ignoring the other side of the sacrifice coin which is that it was God who instigated the sacrifices and who required atonement be made for sin. You've posted a couple dozen or so scriptures outa context which were statements made to rebellious Israel who thought they could live in sin and idolatry without consequence. They were living for the devil, so to speak and figuring all they had to do was kill some sacrifices and placate a just God whom they had disobeyed. God is telling them to forget the meaningless sacrifices until they repent and return to him because they were a useless farce without allegience to him as their God. Sacrifices were for the devout, the repentant and the true worshippers of God, just as today, yah, Jesus died for our sins, but if we think we can say a little prayer of acceptance of him and then go out and live like the devil, it is meaningless.It would take thread pages to post all that God instructed concerning the need and how to's of OT sacrifice and about the necessity of the atonement of Jesus who's blood "cleanses us from all sin."This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-20-2004 10:38 PM

Buddhism simply ignores the sin problem and in fact the Zen Buddhists don't even worship a supreme God so far as I can determine. The nearest thing to a god to them is the Buddah to whom they bow the knee and offer gifts. Shakyamuni, the alleged Biddah abandoned his wife and child, never to return and went off to meditate and have these alleged spiritual encounters where he was suppose to have been enlightened. Zen Buddhists make a point to dissavow themselves from Hinduism, though, I believe Shayuamuni was originally Hindu before his "enlightment," as I understand the story.According to the Voice of the Martyrs, there is some persecution of Christians who practice and teach Christianity in some Buddhist nations. As with Islam, they don't want to lose their power and influence when their people convert out of their religion though they're definitely generally more tolerant than Islam.

Not true. God the father is Jehovah. The son of God, Jehovah is Jesus. It was Jesus, the son of Jehovah, the father who was condemed by Pilot and crucified, becoming the sacrificial propitiation for sin. All the while Jesus was on the cross the father Jehovah was still sitting on the throne of the universe in Heaven. You need to get this straight. I understand your missgivings though on this, because many Christian preachers do not understand this and teach it wrong. Jesus is always referred to as the Son of God in the NT. He often referred to his father as God and called upon him as his God on the cross.

Jesus, being the son of God is worthy of worship and deity, but not God the father. He does not sit on the throne of God in Heaven but on the right hand of the father, according to the text. He stated someplace in John 14 that "My father is greater than I." Paul also said somewhere in I Cor 15 that after Jesus subdued all things under his feet that he would again subject himself to God (the father) that God would be "all and in all." So we see in scripture this clear distinction between the son and the father. That's how the trinity works. So to answer your question, I am not a polytheist and Jesus is not on God's throne as God. He will, according to the prophecies sit on the throne at Jerusalem here on earth soon for a full millenium. He never referred to himself as God but referred to his father as God. In John 14 he did make this statement, "I and my father are one," but he also said he is one with one with us, both referring to being of the Spirit of God which makes them one in the Spirit and ditto with us who are born again of his Spirit.

With all due respect for the Nicene Creed, the above portion if it, imo, is somewhat confusing and clouds the understanding as to the trinity and how it functions. For example, "God of God?" Meaning what? It's not put that way by Jesus himself and the apostles in the NT. This creed, after all is words of man. I like to keep it the way it is put in scripture and leave it at that so as not to confuse. This kind of rhetoric lends to some of the talk of polytheism, etc by critics as we see in this thread.

He, Jesus, is the son of God, Jehovah, his father who sits on the throne of Heaven and Jesus, the son of God is a separate individual from his father, Jehovah. His father, Jehovah remained sitting on the throne of Heaven when Jesus, the son of his father Jehovah was on earth. By the same token, he, Jesus, the son of his father Jehovah is a separate individual from his father as the two reside way out there in a place called Heaven, a literal physical locality in the universe. He sits on the right hand of his father who sits on the throne of the universe in Heaven. PRAISE BE TO JEHOVAH, GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, AND PRAISE BE TO HIS HOLY SON JESUS WHO WILL SOON SIT ON THE THRONE OF DAVID ON EARTH IN JERUSALEM ON MOUNT ZION, THE TEMPLE MOUNT!!!! This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-24-2004 10:24 PM

The Holy Spirit the common spirit of both the father and the son is multipresent, meaning he can be anywhere in the universe the father sends him. He is not only the spirit of both the father and the son but the spirit of the father and the son which indwells in the very bodies of all who are born of the spirit of Jesus and the father via receiving Jesus, the son of Jehovah his father as our saviour and lord/master. When are you going to receive this wonderful salvation, Jar so you too can have his spirit in your body permeating and enlightening your soul and mind?

You need to recount, my friend. How many gods do you count in my post?

How many entities do you count here, my friend?1. Father
2. Son
3. Holy Spirit
= tri-unity = trinity

I've already answered your question, Jar. Live with it and move on.

Jar, that you don't like my answer doesn't mean I haven't fully answered your question. What I've answered is what your getting, period. Move on.

No it doesn't stand atol. Paste my post and refute it point by point if you think you can. God never sent himself. He sent his son Jesus, our lord and saviour, to whom belongs glory, honor and praise, the son of Jehovah, God, the father to whom also belongs glory, honor and praise. You're spinning, twisting and manipulating in your determination to show that I can't be both a polytheist and a trinitarian and you're notagona do it. LOL!This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-26-2004 10:31 PM

This must be qualified, for the argument for polytheism take this and runs with it.Go to nearly all the epistles of the NT and you see the opening statement in chapter one something like this: Colossians 1:2,3And this in I Corinthians 11:3 This father, Jehovah is considered to be the God of us and Jesus is Lord/Master of us. Jesus is also subordinate to the father, so he is not supreme God of the universe as is God the father. Thus he was sent by the father to fulfill the role of sacrificial substitute for sinful man to become the once and for all sin offering, eliminating the need for continual sacrifices in the OT for sin.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-27-2004 10:42 PM

In your message 71 you said it pertained to human as well as animal sacrifices. One cannot isolate the topic to OT without including Jesus of the NT who replaced those OT sacrifices and eliminated the need for them. He was that sinless, spotless human who filled the role. Remember, the OT lamb had to be spotless and without blemish. That it was required regularly on schedule indicates it was not a deterant, for if they knew that no matter how they lived, good or bad, they must offer regularly, there is no deterance in the ritual itself. The only deterant would be punishment to the perpretrator of sin, not to an animal or another human. You've been given that already, PD. Go back and read. One of the numerous examples given was Isaiah 53.