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Author
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Topic: Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country?
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 91 of 308 (214830)
06-06-2005 7:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 88 by gnojek
06-06-2005 7:24 PM
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Check out the Islamic definition of People of the book.
This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to
those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of the world."
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by gnojek, posted 06-06-2005 7:24 PM | | gnojek has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by gnojek, posted 06-06-2005 7:48 PM | | jar has replied |
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gnojek
Inactive Member
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Message 92 of 308 (214834)
06-06-2005 7:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 90 by Asgara
06-06-2005 7:28 PM
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Sorry, the way this board works, I tend to post things before reading through the entire thread. But, why would both Christians and Jews be called people of the book? They don't really have the same book. ???
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Asgara, posted 06-06-2005 7:28 PM | | Asgara has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by Asgara, posted 06-06-2005 7:42 PM | | gnojek has not replied | | | Message 95 by jar, posted 06-06-2005 7:47 PM | | gnojek has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2331 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 93 of 308 (214837)
06-06-2005 7:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 92 by gnojek
06-06-2005 7:39 PM
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People of the book are those who have recieved or are in possession of divine scripture, the Quran, the Torah, and the New Testament. AbE...bah, hit submit too early. Muslims believe that the Torah and the New Testament are corrupt versions of God's revelation, fixed by the Quran. This message has been edited by Asgara, 06-06-2005 06:43 PM
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by gnojek, posted 06-06-2005 7:39 PM | | gnojek has not replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 94 of 308 (214838)
06-06-2005 7:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Asgara
06-06-2005 6:49 PM
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Before you say it, no...militant Islamics wouldn't necessarily make this distinction. You, however, did not make any distinction between militant Islamics and the general populace that follows the religion of Islam. Oh yes I did, many times. That's what "moderate Muslims" refers to.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Asgara, posted 06-06-2005 6:49 PM | | Asgara has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 98 by Asgara, posted 06-06-2005 7:58 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 95 of 308 (214839)
06-06-2005 7:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 92 by gnojek
06-06-2005 7:39 PM
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Actually, the Muslims accept most of the Old Testatment as scripture. They revere the same prophets including Moses and Abraham, Isaac and Joseph, honor the same GOD and even accept Jesus as a prophet. They do not believe he was GOD though. They have the same creation story as in Genesis (except that women are treated much better in the Islamic Version).
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by gnojek, posted 06-06-2005 7:39 PM | | gnojek has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by Jazzns, posted 06-07-2005 2:29 PM | | jar has not replied |
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6501 days) Posts: 756 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Joined: 06-06-2005
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Message 96 of 308 (214840)
06-06-2005 7:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by crashfrog
06-06-2005 6:25 PM
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Muslim moderates
I assumed that most North American Muslims must be moderates. But then I noticed that hardly any Muslims ever showed up in marches for democracy or against terrorism. I was told by Muslims that almost all congregations and mosques have been taken over by Saudi financed Wahabbi Islamists. And then this question occurred to me: Why doesn't this "moderate majority" get on the congregation boards and fire the Wahabbi Imams? And if for some reason that isn't possible, why don't they resign from the congregation and form a new one? The implied answer is disturbing: The silent majority may favour democracy, but they ultimtaely identify more with fellow Muslims, no matter their religious and political views, than with their fellow liberal democratic American/Canadian cirtizens. I'd love to be proved wrong, but reason suggests that won't happen.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 06-06-2005 6:25 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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gnojek
Inactive Member
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Message 97 of 308 (214842)
06-06-2005 7:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by jar
06-06-2005 7:29 PM
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Very interesting. Most interesting to me is:
quote:
Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
It seems that Islam, even when it reaches out to "allies," focuses primarily on hate.
quote:
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
This is written almost as if the default practice was to indeed destroy a house of worship if it is not the right kind. Christians are spared this fate for some reason (something to do with Abraham, maybe).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by jar, posted 06-06-2005 7:29 PM | | jar has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2331 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 98 of 308 (214844)
06-06-2005 7:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
06-06-2005 7:46 PM
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I was referring to your msg 82. The post I was replying to.
The difference is that they don't follow a religion that preaches killing infidels such as yourself. Seeing as how jar is a Christian and holds no enmity toward Islam, the majority of Muslims would NOT preach to kill him as an infidel. I fully admit that you have used the term moderate muslim several times. You do make it sound like you are equating those you call moderate with a minority of Muslims.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Faith, posted 06-06-2005 7:46 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 99 of 308 (214852)
06-06-2005 8:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
06-06-2005 6:30 PM
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CAIR people pose as moderates too, how would you know? I'm still waiting to see the evidence that CAIR is a terrorist front, or whatever. Did I miss it? I have no interest or preference either way; but that's a claim that I'd like substantiated beyond "everybody knows it." Here is, after all, one person who does not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Faith, posted 06-06-2005 6:30 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Re: Muslim moderates
quote:
But then I noticed that hardly any Muslims ever showed up in marches for democracy or against terrorism.
How does one determine the religious faith of those attending marches and demonstrations? And which "marches for democracy or against terrorism" are you referring to? -
quote:
The implied answer is disturbing: The silent majority may favour democracy, but they ultimtaely identify more with fellow Muslims, no matter their religious and political views, than with their fellow liberal democratic American/Canadian cirtizens.
For the same reason that American Communists didn't leave the CPUSA when it was obviously run by Stalinist stooges. For the same reason that we didn't all quit the union to which I belonged when the leadership refused to let an anti-war resolution from being voted upon. For the same reason that anti-gay Episcopalians are not (yet) withdrawing from the Episcopalian Church. And for the same reason many people do not just up and leave countries run by despotic regimes, preferring to stay. One doesn't just up and leave an organization to which one has developed personal ties because one disagrees with the official policies -- sometimes not even when those policies are personally objectionable. It is preferrable for some people to stay involved and try to make changes.
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 101 of 308 (214854)
06-06-2005 8:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 97 by gnojek
06-06-2005 7:48 PM
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The New Testament has quite few verses about what God hates. But this game of taking verses out of context has been done to death and is getting quite wearisome.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by gnojek, posted 06-06-2005 7:48 PM | | gnojek has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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And which "marches for democracy or against terrorism" are you referring to? I guess those are going on after the "pro ice cream and puppies" marches that are always on the news? Next week I'm in a "isn't lemonade delicious?" demonstration; I expect record turnout. Hopefully that god-damned "People's Iced Tea Front" won't come by to ruin it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by Chiroptera, posted 06-06-2005 8:55 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by Asgara, posted 06-06-2005 9:07 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2331 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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There was nothing wrong with the People's Ice Tea Front (PITF) until those damn sweet tea lovers took over.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 102 by crashfrog, posted 06-06-2005 9:02 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 104 of 308 (214860)
06-06-2005 9:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by Asgara
06-06-2005 9:07 PM
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Those damn hippie fruits say that, in a plural society, there's room for enjoyment of both iced tea and lemonade. That's exactly what you'd expect those commies to say, isn't it? Unnatural. A threat to our freedoms. I say, if you're not with lemonade, you're against it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by Asgara, posted 06-06-2005 9:07 PM | | Asgara has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 105 by Asgara, posted 06-06-2005 9:19 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2331 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Brother, don't hate on a friend. Ice Tea and Lemonade have enjoyed a LONG and refreshing friendship, aye even many happy marriages. Let us unite against the COMMON enemy, the heresy of SWEET TEA. This message has been edited by Asgara, 06-06-2005 08:20 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 06-06-2005 9:13 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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