|
Author
|
Topic: Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
Message 71 of 150 (136826)
08-25-2004 4:08 PM
|
|
|
Sin Sacrifice
This concerns the sacrifice for sin only, not the other various offerings. Sin: Missing the mark Sacrifice: slaughter, kill I’m discussing sacrifice as in an offering of the life of a person or animal, or of an object, in homage to a deity. I am not discussing sacrifice as in giving up, destroying, etc. of one thing for the sake of another. I find a considerable difference between Leviticus and Deuteronomy when it comes to sacrifices. Again Leviticus is extremely detailed and Deuteronomy is not. Deuteronomy doesn’t mention sin or guilt sacrifices. It does give some death penalties, but not as many as Leviticus.
Leviticus 4 (Concerns unintentional sin)
The Lord said to Moses, Say to the Israelites: When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands... This phrase starts chapter 4 and includes instructions for cases such as:
3 If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people...
13 If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally...
22 When a leader sins unintentionally...
27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally... In this way the priest will make atonement for the individual or group for the sin committed and the individual or group will be forgiven. (This sentence summarizes what is written at the end of each example)
Leviticus 5 If a person sins (chata):
1 because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify...
2 touches anything ceremonially unclean...
3 touches human uncleanness...
4 thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil...
5 When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a guilt (asham) offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
15 When a person acts unfaithfully and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the Lord’s holy things, he is to bring to the Lord as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt (asham) offering.
16...give it all to the priest, who will make atonement for him with the ram as a guilt offering, and he will be forgiven.
17 If a person sins and does not know it, he is guilty...19 It is a guilt offering; he has been guilty of wrongdoing against the Lord. Leviticus 6:1-7 deals with deceiving, stealing, cheating, lying.
2 If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the Lord by deceiving his neighbor about something entrusted to him or left in his care or stolen, or if he cheats him,
3 or if he finds lost property and lies about it, or if he swears falsely, or if he commits any such sin that people may do He must make restitution...
6 and as a penalty he must bring to the priest,guilt (asham) offering... These all deal with actions and not frame of mind. Sorta like paying a parking ticket.
Now we have the list of unlawful sexual relations in Chapter 18.
29 Everyone who does any of these detestable things — such persons must be cut off from their people. (No mention of sacrifice to atone) In Chapter 19:20 a man who sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but is not put to death, but can pay the guilt offering.
In Chapter 20 all these people (aliens or Israelites) must be put to death. No option of sacrifice and Chapter 18 said cut off from the people, not death.
2 ...give any of their children to Molech
9 ...anyone curses his father or mother
10 ...man commits adultery with another man’s wife
11 ...man sleeps with his father’s wife
12 ...man sleeps with his daughter-in-law
13 ...man lies with a man as one lies with a woman
14 ...man marries both a woman and her mother (burned in fire)
15 ...man has sexual relations with an animal (plus you have to kill the animal)
16 ...woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations (also has to kill animal) Chapter 24 (No options for sacrifice or forgiveness)
16 ...anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born...
17 ...If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. (same law for native or alien) Chapter 26 (Reward for Obedience) (See also Deut 28)
3 If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will:
send you rain in its season and the ground will yield its crops
grant peace in the land...
remove savage beasts...
I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers...
I will keep my covenant with you... The punishments for disobedience sound familiar and ends with
40 But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their fathers — their treachery against me and their hostility toward me ... then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, I will remember my covenant with Jacob. 46 These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Iraelites through Moses. IMO Deuteronomy is more realistic as to what was covered in the wilderness. The sin and guilt sacrifices in Leviticus equate to fines or penalties we have today for infractions. They were the physical penalties used to enforce certain rules. The sin sacrifices did not apply to all crimes. Unfortunately in Jeremiah’s day, the penalties didn’t stop the people from sinning against each other or God. Claiming that Jesus is the final atonement sacrifice for sin, would mean there are no more physical penalties levied on humans for sin. Granted the sacrificial system ended with the destruction of the temple, but we are still fined for our infractions against our society. Cheating, stealing, murder, etc. all carry penalties. I feel the sacrifice was the deterrent and the repentance is what made amends with God. In Jeremiah, God was angry that the sacrifices continued, but repentance stopped. Unfortunately we don't have an example of good behavior without sacrifice. Just like today, bad behavior gets more attention. BTW I found no penalty for not bringing a sacrifice.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by Phat, posted 08-26-2004 10:10 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 73 of 150 (137011)
08-26-2004 11:30 AM
|
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
08-26-2004 10:10 AM
|
|
Re: Obedience is better than Sacrifice
Exactly! When my father was suffering from cancer (abt 6 yrs) the church he had belonged to since childhood, put him on the call list. No one from this wonderful church family came to visit him until his name came up on their list. The elders didn't call until his name came up on their list and then, when my mother answered the phone, they'd say "Well it is my turn to call, so how's he doing?" When he was well he was very active in the church. My father is one of those people who helps others because he enjoys helping others and was able to. (Jack of all trades type). Once he was unable to go to church anymore or help, he didn't hear from anyone until he showed up on their list. This church wasn't good at practicing what they preach.
quote:
To sacrifice means giving up something that a person claims as their own.
That's what sacrifice in the church has come to mean in this day and age. Give of your money, time, money, resources, money, etc. 
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Phat, posted 08-26-2004 10:10 AM | | Phat has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 78 of 150 (137312)
08-27-2004 8:17 AM
|
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
08-23-2004 6:49 PM
|
|
Re: The Sacrificial Lamb? Who be talking to whom?
quote:
This topic is interesting! Purple Dawn, should our focus be on the meaning of the Bible as a book? Should it be on Jesus?
The focus is on the OT and the true purpose of blood sacrifice for sin. Was a sin sacrifice something required by God or simply served as a physical penalty to deter wrongdoing? Message 71 Was God telling Jeremiah that the writings of the time were flawed and did not represent God's will? Message 68 If sacrifices for sin are proven to have atonement qualities in and of themselves, then where is the prophecy that tells the Jews their Messiah would be a final sin sacrifice? Message 67
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Phat, posted 08-23-2004 6:49 PM | | Phat has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 12:13 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 84 of 150 (137388)
08-27-2004 1:28 PM
|
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 12:13 PM
|
|
quote:
One cannot isolate the topic to OT without including Jesus of the NT who replaced those OT sacrifices and eliminated the need for them.
Before we can say the body of Jesus replaced the sin sacrifices, we have to show that the sin sacrifices were indeed required by God and that the death of the animal truly atoned for ALL sins. That information is in the OT not the NT.
quote:
That it was required regularly on schedule indicates it was not a deterant
Aside from the yearly atonement sacrifice for unintentional sin covering the whole assembly, I don't see that the sin sacrifices were regularly scheduled.
quote:
One of the numerous examples given was Isaiah 53
I haven't seen numerous examples and Isaiah 53 is past tense not future tense.
3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Thousands supposedly came to hear Jesus speak. They cheered him coming into the city. Men followed him just because he told them to. What suffering was he familiar with?
10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the Lord will prosper in his hand.
Jesus supposedly had no offspring.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 12:13 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 7:14 PM | | purpledawn has replied | | | Message 90 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:16 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 86 of 150 (137519)
08-27-2004 9:31 PM
|
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 7:14 PM
|
|
Israel.
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen....I said you are my servant... Isaiah 44:1-2
But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen...Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant,... Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant.... See, my servant will act wisely;... The nation of Israel knew sorrow and suffering and was despised by many nations. I'm not going to cover line by line, because I'm quite sure you have read of the diseases inflicted on Israel, the battles, the trials, etc. covered in the OT.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 7:14 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 10:27 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 93 of 150 (137599)
08-28-2004 9:43 AM
|
Reply to: Message 90 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 11:16 PM
|
|
quote:
1. Please document that the yearly sacrifice and sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat of the Holy of Holies in the temple was only for unintentional sins??
I already did in Message 71. Plus the day of atonement is not listed in Deuteronomy.
Leviticus 4
1The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2Speak to the Israelite people thus: When a person unwittingly incurs guilt in regard to any of the Lords commandments about things not to be done, and does one of them quote:
2. Even if, I say if, those required yearly sacrifices were for intentional sins, aren't you thereby admitting that in both the OT and NT God required sacrificial atonement for sins? The Bible, both OT and NT teach that all humans have sinned.
You saying that the sin sacrifice is for intentional sin also, doesn't make it so. Show me that the sin sacrifice was required for ALL intentional sins and that it was required by God when they came out of Egypt.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:16 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 08-28-2004 11:08 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 94 of 150 (137603)
08-28-2004 10:58 AM
|
Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 10:27 PM
|
|
quote:
PD, I'm afraid you're showing gross ignorance of Biblical doctrine and understanding.
Doctrine: Something taught as the principles of a religion, political party, etc. I'm quite aware of church doctrine and am arguing agaist it.
quote:
please be honest and tell whether this more closely typlifies the suffering Jesus NT account or historical Israel?
I've already showed you why I don't feel that Jesus matches ALL the statements in Isaiah 53. No offspring, not diseased, not disfigured, and not dispised by all. These examples knock Jesus out of the running. May I suggest that you show me how Jesus matches up with ALL of Isaiah 53 since you believe that he matches all of them.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 10:27 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 99 of 150 (137810)
08-29-2004 11:03 AM
|
Reply to: Message 96 by Buzsaw
08-28-2004 11:08 PM
|
|
Leviticus 4 defines the purpose of the sin offering. Leviticus 16 give the guidelines for the Day of Atonement.
Leviticus 16
11 Aaron offers a bull as a sin offering for his own sin. (Lev 4)
15 Slaughter one goat for the sin offering (Lev 4) for the people.
15 He shall sprinkle it on the atonment cover and in front of it. In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. (this is not atonement for the people)
16 He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. (Again not for the people)
18 Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. (Still not for the people)
20 When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat.
21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites - ALL their sins - and put them on the goat's head. (This goat is never sacrificed/slaughtered. It is released into the desert.) The one animal that does supposedly carry ALL of Israel's sins is not sacrificed. It is turned loose in the desert or cut off from the people, so to speak. As I showed in Message 71 Chapter 20 and 24 have offences with death penalities, which don't have the option of atonement by sacrifice. Do you really believe that if Aaron committed any of the sins in Chapter 20, 24 or murder, that he would be able to present the Day of Atonement sacrifices? If they followed the rules, he would be dead or cast out.
Leviticus 23:28-30
Do no work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God. Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people. I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on that day. So even on this day that, according to you, is supposed to atone for ALL sins (intentional or not) these two offenses have harsh penalties and apparently no atonement options. Again the Day of Atonement was not mentioned in Deuteronomy.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 08-28-2004 11:08 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2004 9:27 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 105 of 150 (138061)
08-30-2004 10:55 AM
|
Reply to: Message 103 by Buzsaw
08-29-2004 9:27 PM
|
|
Unintentional Sin
quote:
You're ignoring the required yearly ram which MUST be killed and it's blood sprinkled on the mercy seat of the Holy of Holies. Why are you deceitfully sweeping this fact under your rug?
Still not going to fly, Buz. No deceit, no rug!
Leviticus 16:3
This is how Aaron is to enter the sanctuary area: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.
The ram is for a burnt offering, which is not a sin offering. There's a nice little table in my Bible (NIV Study Bible) which also has under purpose for Burnt Offering:
Voluntary act of worship; atonement for unintentional sin in general; expression of devotion, commitment and complete surrender to God. Then we have:
Numbers 15:22-31 Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses - any of the Lord's commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come - and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering a an aroma pleasing to the Lord, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering....One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blaphemes the Lord, and that person must be cut off from his people. Because he has despised the Lord's word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him. quote:
That's the prime debate of the topic is it not, and aren't you trying your best to deny the evidence that this regular sacrifice was required upon Israel?
I agree that the Day of Atonement was a regular sacrifice once it was started and it was required of Israel by Israel, but not by God and it did not cover intentional sin. Therefore the sin sacrifices did not make atonement for ALL sin. The main point of the OP is that God did not require sacrifices for sin, intentional or otherwise, per Jeremiah 7:22. Therefore Jesus could not have been a sacrifice to cover ALL sin, since 1. the sin sacrifice was not used to forgive intentional sin, and 2. God didn't require it anyway for intentional or unintentional. Leviticus is a Priest's manual, which appears IMO to have been written around or after the time of the exile. (See Message 68) I wouldn't think the priests would have had much to do until the second temple was built.
A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson Page 82-83 But whereas earlier histories and prophecies had dwelt on the sense of collective guilt, and attributed to king and leaders the wickedness which had brought down divine wrath on all, the exiled Jews now had no one to blame but their individual selves. God, wrote Exekiel, no loner punished people collectively for the sin of a leader, or the present generation for the faults of their ancestors. (Ezekiel 18) With Ezekiel it became paramount, and thereafter individual accountability became of the very essence of the Jewish religion.... Between 734 and 581 BC there were six distinct deportations of the Israelites, and more fled voluntarily to Egypt and other parts of the Near East....Thus scattered, leaderless, without a state of any of the normal supportive apparatus provided by their own government, the Jews were forced to find alternative means to preserve their special identity. So they turned to their writings - their laws, and the records of their past. From this time we hear more of the scribes. Hitherto, they had simply been secretaries, like Baruch, writing down the words of the great. Now they became an important caste, setting down in writing oral traditions, copying precious scrolls brought from the ruined Temple, ordering, editing and rationalizing the Jewish archives. For a time indeed they were more important than the priests....The exile was conducive to scribal effort. ... Hence it was during the Exile that ordinary Jews were first disciplined into the regular practice of their religion. Circumcision, which distinguished them ineffaceably from the surrounding pagans, was insisted upon rigorously, and the act became a ceremony....The concept of the Sabbath, strongly reinforced by what they learned from Babylonian astronomy, became the focus of the Jewish week.... The Jewish year was now for the first time punctuated by the regular feasts: Passover...; Pentecost....; Tabernacles... and as the consciousness of individual responsibility sank into their hearts, the Jews began to celebrate too the New Year in memory of creation, and the Day of Atonement in anticipation of judgment. From what is written in Ezekiel 18 it appears that the only atonement for intentional sin is repentance and return to right behavior. Jesus preached repentance not sacrifice. Message 32
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2004 9:27 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 108 of 150 (139152)
09-02-2004 12:09 PM
|
Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 10:27 PM
|
|
quote:
How in the world can you identify Israel with the following in Isa. 53?
1. ....a MAN of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and a one from whom men hide their face.....
2. ......HE WAS WOUNDED FOR OUR TRANGRESSIONS {sins) HE WAS BRUISED FOR OUR INIQUITIES; ........WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED
3. Jehovah has LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL.....
4. When he was aflicted HE OPENED NOT HIS MOUTH as the lamb that iis led to the slaughter and as a sheep that before his shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.....
5. He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people.. ( one dies for the sins of the people -- hardly a nation dying for itself)
6. .....you shall make his soul as an offering for sin.....
5. HE BORE THE SIN OF MANY AND MADE INTERCESSION FOR THE TRANSGRESSORS (sinners) Now, PD, please be honest and tell whether this more closely typlifies the suffering Jesus NT account or historical Israel?
I don't think it is reasonable to compare the Biblical account of Jesus with Historical accounts of Israel. To be fair you would need to compare the Biblical accounts concerning each. Biblical Israel did see itself as a suffering servant. The suffering theme of Israel is throughout the OT. Their adversities were frequently compared to sickness. So I would still say that Isaiah as a whole reflects how Israel saw itself and not how the life of Jesus was depicted, as a whole, in the NT.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 10:27 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 113 of 150 (139868)
09-04-2004 1:28 PM
|
Reply to: Message 44 by Aurelie
08-23-2004 5:59 PM
|
|
Re: God displeased with sacrifice?
quote:
In order to hold the belief that God didn't approve of sacrifices, you would also have to believe that the Bible contradicts itself.
The Bible did not write itself, therefore it cannot contradict itself. But I cannot say the same for its various authors, scribes, editors, etc. IMO the OT is written by Hebrews, for Hebrews, about Hebrews. They recorded their past, present and possible future as seen through their eyes. We see the religous/political trials and tribulations of a culture, which changed through the ages as cultures tend to do. It is not a contradiction for a culture/society to change over time. For example: In the early history of the United States, slavery was legal and acceptable to most. Over time that changed and today slavery is illegal in the US, which is a good change. Our history books record these events and how the changes came about. Now if our culture tries to go back and change the past records and say that slavery was never condoned and tries to explain away any texts that say otherwise, then we have problems and contradictions. My theory is that Leviticus was not written in the desert, but is a sacrifical system that developed after the exile. Message 68 & Message 71 Unfortunately, it appears that the culture after the exile tried to upgrade their past stories and writings to reconcile with their present way of living, which can cause contradictions and anachronisms. IMO this is when the rabbis started building the "fence" around the Torah so that they wouldn't accidently offend God again. Hopefully this will give you an idea of how I view the Bible.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Aurelie, posted 08-23-2004 5:59 PM | | Aurelie has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 116 of 150 (140623)
09-07-2004 9:39 AM
|
|
|
Bump
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."
Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." David committed adultery and had the husband killed. He admitted his guilt, but didn't make a sacrifice for atonement. Nathan said he was forgiven. Now for the above intentional sins, the penalty should have been instant death. No death and no sin offering, but there was forgiveness. Doesn't follow the laws in Leviticus.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by ramoss, posted 09-11-2004 11:37 PM | | purpledawn has replied | | | Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 09-14-2004 12:38 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 118 of 150 (141994)
09-13-2004 9:18 AM
|
Reply to: Message 117 by ramoss
09-11-2004 11:37 PM
|
|
Re: Bump
Not really, since they probably made the rules. But it does give a little more credence to my theory that Leviticus was written closer to the second temple period than at Mt. Sinai. Which would also mean that the detailed laws of sin sacrifice were not given at Mt. Sinai.
Deuteronomy 1:17
You are not to show favoritism when judging, but give equal attention to the small and to the great. No matter how a person presents himself, don't be afraid of him; because the decision is God's. The case that is too hard for you, bring to me and I will hear it.' Deuteronomy 16:19
You are not to distort justice or show favoritism, and you are not to accept a bribe, for a gift blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of even the upright. Romans 2:11
For God does not show favoritism. James 2:9
But if you show favoritism, your actions constitute sin, since you are convicted under the Torah as transgressors. So the possibility exists that 1) the laws of Leviticus (as we know them) were not in place at that time, or 2) God does show favoritism.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by ramoss, posted 09-11-2004 11:37 PM | | ramoss has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by ramoss, posted 09-13-2004 1:02 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 120 of 150 (142237)
09-13-2004 10:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 119 by ramoss
09-13-2004 1:02 PM
|
|
Re: Bump
Really flys in the face of
Deuteronomy 12:4
You must not worship the Lord your God in their way. Pickin and choosin apparently not a new theme.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by ramoss, posted 09-13-2004 1:02 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
|
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
|
|
|
Message 122 of 150 (142291)
09-14-2004 8:57 AM
|
Reply to: Message 121 by Buzsaw
09-14-2004 12:38 AM
|
|
Re: Bump
quote:
Yearly atonement by the high priest was made for all sins of the people and the king as the blood of the animal was sprinkled on the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies of the Temple.
I already showed you in Message 99 that the sprinkling of the blood was not for the people. The Temple wasn't around in David's time anyway. The goat is the one that supposedly took ALL the sin and it wasn't slaughtered for sacrifice. Show me by the actions of the people in the Bible that the Day of Atonement was practiced on a regular basis before the second temple. Don't quote the rules governing it, but show me where it was practiced in the Bible.
quote:
I believe the death penalty would not apply for the king.
Why not? Where does it say that the king is exempt? The rules were for the alien and the native-born. No favoritism!
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 09-14-2004 12:38 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2