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Author
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Topic: A question that was first presented by Socrates.
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 1 of 314 (144004)
09-23-2004 2:26 AM
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As some of you may already know, I love philosophy. Although I am a physics student, I've been taking as many philosophy classes as much as I can. Especially philosophy of ethics, every student is always asked the following question: Is a thing good because god commands it or does god commands it because it is good? This question was first asked by Socrates to someone known as Euthephro. You can find out the details of how Socrates came up with this question by reading the dialogue of Euthephro. There are many people here, both evolutionists and creationists, who believe in god. For those of you that believe in god, what are your answers to this question? Also, I suspect that an admin will ask me to post my answer first before approving this topic. I do not have an answer to this because I do not believe in god. This message has been edited by Darth Mal, 09-23-2004 01:28 AM This message has been edited by Darth Mal, 09-23-2004 01:28 AM
The Laminator
B ULLS HIT For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 5 of 314 (144070)
09-23-2004 10:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Silent H
09-23-2004 5:19 AM
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Originally, Socrates asked "Is a thing good because the gods command it or does the gods command it because it is good?" Modern philosophers just changed "gods" to "god" to apply that to the modern Judeo-christian god. Sorry, I assumed everybody already knew this.
The Laminator
B ULLS HIT For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 5:19 AM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 6 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 12:19 PM | | coffee_addict has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 7 of 314 (144106)
09-23-2004 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Silent H
09-23-2004 12:19 PM
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If that is your answer, what do you think prevents god from changing its mind... or is it entirely possible that it will change its mind and today's evil could be tomorrow's good?
The Laminator
B ULLS HIT For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 12:19 PM | | Silent H has replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 9 of 314 (144118)
09-23-2004 2:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
09-23-2004 2:29 PM
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Well, I was hoping for some christian answers from some of the fundies here. As I understand it, you're not one of them... or am I wrong?
The Laminator
B ULLS HIT For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 2:29 PM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by Silent H, posted 09-23-2004 5:26 PM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 11 of 314 (144165)
09-23-2004 4:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Loudmouth
09-23-2004 3:34 PM
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In other words, what you are saying is that "the good" is entirely seperate from god. Am I right?
The Laminator
B ULLS HIT For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Loudmouth, posted 09-23-2004 3:34 PM | | Loudmouth has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by Loudmouth, posted 09-23-2004 5:19 PM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Would you, then, say that god can change its mind about what's good and what's not if it wants to?
The Laminator
B ULLS HIT For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 09-23-2004 8:37 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Bump for Mike
Well?
The Laminator
B ULLS HIT For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Mike, I'm confused. Could you give a direct answer to the question again? Is a thing good because god says it's good or does god says it's good because it is good?
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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You know, trying to sound like Brad isn't a good idea. Just give me a straight forward answer for once.
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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If god is good, then are you saying that god is bounded by good or are you saying that god makes up his mind what is good or not?
The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by mike the wiz, posted 09-26-2004 8:28 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Would you say, then, that if god commands someone to commit genocide that genocide is, then, good?
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November! Why? Bush is a right wing nutcase.
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Do me a favor and stay away from my family.
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Well, you entered right into Socrates' trap. I guess it's your choice on how you want to live your life.
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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If you answer that god commands what's good, then you are admitting that there's nothing preventing god from changing its mind. In other words, all the religious nuts ever lived in history have had an excuse that they were doing god's work. That's why I want you to stay away from my family. Don't know when your god will command you to take out a semi-automatic and gun down every gay man you could see. If you answer that god commans it because it is good, then you are admitting that god ain't all knowing or all powerful, that it is subjected something even greater. Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Now I know where you stand, I at least know who to keep my eyes out for. I'll always watch for little kittens.
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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GN writes: This is true, but I did not pick either of these as my answer. Again, it is a false dilemma. The answer is that God is the supreme Good. He does not create what Good (for then he might change his mind about what is Good) and he does not command what is already Good (for them Good would be greater than God). Instead, Good comes from God's very nature, and he commands the moral law to be Good because he cannot contradict his own nature.
No, it is not a false dilemma. If you say that god is the supreme good, then you are saying that what he commands must be good. If that is the case, is there anything that keeps him from changing? If you say no, then today's evil could be tomorrow's good. If you answer yes, then he ain't supreme anymore. Get it?
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