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Author
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Topic: Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 91 of 306 (213433)
06-02-2005 9:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 90 by nator
06-02-2005 9:32 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
Was it "good" for God to order the genocide of an entire nation of people; men, women, and infants? Yes.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 9:32 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 9:52 AM | | Faith has replied |
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J. Davis
Inactive Member
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Message 92 of 306 (213435)
06-02-2005 9:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 90 by nator
06-02-2005 9:32 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
Where is your evidence that God done this? Why are you scared to mention GOD with us - Jesus Christ? Why is it you insist that the OT is proof of God's cruelty rather than proof of the people's sin? You cannot even comprehend what people where like back then. People who would make idols and sacrifice their own children. Is it good to abort children? You haven't answered me, what is good? If morals are relative, then I'll assume you're happy with a Jack the Ripper God because he dilligently obeys his moral to only kill women. WHo is correct, unbeliever 1 or 2? Should God listen to you or Jack? Christ tells us what is good, absolutely.. Only he fulfilled the law. All thos eother men you mention in the OT, had the law of sin and death, and all of them failed. Only Christ done good and did not ever sin, therefore he is the standard of God. This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:43 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 9:32 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 99 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 10:02 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
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J. Davis
Inactive Member
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Message 93 of 306 (213438)
06-02-2005 9:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 89 by PaulK
06-02-2005 9:31 AM
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Re: Check mate
No, as he would also know what she done next. His knowing doesn't make him change Shraff's mind. Lil miss Shraffy is the one who changes her mind, but it doesn't matter if God foresees it, it is not his will, as his will cannot be changed by humans or he wouldn't be all powerful. Therefore it isn't possible that he created her to go to hell. Checkmate. Therefore, it is the fault of him that chooses to not believe, and stay in sin. You're not concentrating on choice enough. The choice is real. That an unbeliever AS OF NOW, can choose to believe, and it was God's will to tell his apostles to preach the Gospel that people will be saved. God says his will is that we believe. He has told us his will beforehand. So it can't be that his will can change with a change of the human's mind. This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:51 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2005 9:31 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 104 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2005 10:14 AM | | J. Davis has replied | | | Message 105 by Asgara, posted 06-02-2005 10:14 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 94 of 306 (213439)
06-02-2005 9:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
06-01-2005 8:45 PM
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Re: You left out one important bit
Faith writes: There are no contradictions. God had the task of presenting himself to fallen humanity in terms we could grasp... Not to change the subject, but how is this any different than grasping at the nearest argument of convenience? Creationists claim it isn't possible that God might have described creation "in terms we could grasp", but you say he did precisely that when "presenting himself to fallen humanity." If fundamentalist Christians want people to believe them when they claim there are no contradictions then they might start by removing the contradictions from their own explanations.
We live in time so God presents Himself to our time-consciousness. There is no reason He couldn't have created everything in a flash, but He lays it out by days so that our minds can have something to fasten onto {Edit: This is in fact the view of John Calvin}. There's a great deal in scripture that is done strictly for our benefit, as God's condescension to our weaknesses. Your religion makes the simple very complicated by inventing ever more metaphysical rationalizations. God is responsible for all creation. You've already conceded that he creates souls that he knows will be condemned to hell, and this would seem to answer the question in the title of this thread. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 8:45 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 10:00 AM | | Percy has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 95 of 306 (213441)
06-02-2005 9:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
06-02-2005 9:41 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
So, if someone were to claim that God told them to kill all the Islamic settlers in "Palestine" (men, women, and children), for example, then it would be OK?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 9:41 AM | | Faith has replied |
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J. Davis
Inactive Member
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Message 96 of 306 (213442)
06-02-2005 9:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by nator
06-02-2005 9:52 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
No, Christ says don't even get angry with your brother, so it's not possible for us to do this. Muslims on the other hand, and unbelievers, are free to jihad under relative morals lil miss shraffy. This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:55 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 9:52 AM | | nator has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 97 of 306 (213443)
06-02-2005 10:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Percy
06-02-2005 9:50 AM
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Re: You left out one important bit
I concede, Percy. Your logic is invincible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Percy, posted 06-02-2005 9:50 AM | | Percy has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 98 of 306 (213444)
06-02-2005 10:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by nator
06-02-2005 9:52 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
So, if someone were to claim that God told them to kill all the Islamic settlers in "Palestine" (men, women, and children), for example, then it would be OK? No, because they would be deceived, as that wouldn't be God telling them that.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 9:52 AM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 99 of 306 (213445)
06-02-2005 10:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 92 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 9:42 AM
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quote:
Where is your evidence that God done this?
Don't you read your bible?
21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah. 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Want more? There's lost of stuff like this in there.
quote:
Is it good to abort children?
Is it good to force women to carry pregnancies to term against their will?
quote:
If morals are relative, then I'll assume you're happy with a Jack the Ripper God because he dilligently obeys his moral to only kill women.
If morals are absolute, then I'll assume that you're happy with God ordering the genocide of entire nations, the killing of male children, and the taking of the captured females as the spoils of war, presumably to rape. If someone was a believer in Christ and tried his very best to follow the moral rules of the Bible, but it turns out that he actually misunderstood some key points and was doing a bunch of stuff very against Christ's teachings due to this misunderstnading, would God damn this person to hell? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-02-2005 10:04 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 9:42 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
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Parasomnium
Member Posts: 2224 Joined: 07-15-2003
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Message 100 of 306 (213446)
06-02-2005 10:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 9:54 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
Is there a reason you have to address Schrafinator as "lil miss shraffy"? Does it have to do with her relative morals somehow being inferior to the absolute morals of Christie-boy? Cut the crap and behave like an adult.
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 9:54 AM | | J. Davis has not replied |
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kjsimons
Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: 06-17-2003 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 101 of 306 (213447)
06-02-2005 10:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
06-02-2005 10:02 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
No, because they would be deceived, as that wouldn't be God telling them that. But according to the bible, God has ordered people to do something very similar in the past, so why wouldn't he do so again?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 10:02 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 114 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 10:28 AM | | kjsimons has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 102 of 306 (213448)
06-02-2005 10:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
06-02-2005 10:02 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
quote:
No, because they would be deceived, as that wouldn't be God telling them that.
How do you know that God isn't telling them that?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 10:02 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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J. Davis
Inactive Member
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Message 103 of 306 (213449)
06-02-2005 10:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 102 by nator
06-02-2005 10:07 AM
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Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murder Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murder Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murder Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murder Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murder Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murder Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murder HELLO! Can you HEEEEEEAAAAAR MEEEEE? You missing out God's example on earth, of how to act, Jesus Christ. Men's actions in the OT don't bother me, as Abraham argued to spare any righteouss, therefore, the law os sin and death doesn't apply to believers in Christ. You need to read the NT.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 102 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 10:07 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 10:19 AM | | J. Davis has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.3
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Message 104 of 306 (213451)
06-02-2005 10:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 9:47 AM
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Re: Check mate
I'm sorry but you really do need to think carefully about the logic. Either it is possible that Schraf could decide to believe - which would prove God wrong or it is not. If it is not then your argument fails. Therefore your argument presumes that God can be wrong. I suggest that you consider that logic instead of trying to evade it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 9:47 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 105 of 306 (213452)
06-02-2005 10:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 9:47 AM
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Re: Check mate
as he would also know what she done next. Exactly, though not in the way you are thinking. He would know what she did next, and next, and next....and would know the state of her belief at the moment of death. Do you deny this?
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 9:47 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 113 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 10:27 AM | | Asgara has replied |
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