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Author
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Topic: Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: You left out one important bit
So are you saying that this "eternal present" encompasses all of eternity? The point where Adam was created? The point that Schraf's soul was created? The point that she was born? The point where she realized that she didn't believe? The point where she will die? In this "eternal present" does god know everything that is happening?
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:20 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: You left out one important bit
Then for all practical purposes it is the same as foreknowing with the same problems. If god knows everything that is happening then he knows what state anyone's "soul" is in at death. Therefore he knows that certain people will die as atheists. If god knows that people will be atheists at death and still brings them into being, or allows them to come into being, or whatever your brand of god does then it stands to reason that these particular people are created solely to be damned.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:33 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: You left out one important bit
Did he or did he not know their atheist/death state at the same time he allowed them to be created? No one says he "made" them do anything. The problem comes if you claim omnipotence for god AND creation of all things. If these BOTH are not facets of your belief than I have no problem.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:49 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 72 of 306 (213344)
06-01-2005 11:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
06-01-2005 9:01 PM
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Re: some are created solely to be damned
This is all true. And yet ALL WHO HEAR THE GOSPEL ARE INVITED. All who sincerely want to be saved God's way will be saved. There is no way for anyone to know who is to be saved and who not. Any unbeliever could at any moment become a believer. It doesn't really matter whether or not any person knows this before hand. What is being discussed is if god knows it. You agreed that certain people are created solely to be damned.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 9:01 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 82 of 306 (213417)
06-02-2005 8:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 81 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 8:31 AM
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Re: You left out one important bit
If the parents were created solely to make sure the child was born then so be it. It doesn't change the fact that the parents were created to be damned.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 8:31 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 8:43 AM | | Asgara has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 85 of 306 (213422)
06-02-2005 8:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 84 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 8:43 AM
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Re: You left out one important bit
It doesn't have to be backed by the bible hun, it is backed very well by reason. IF god is omniscient AND god creates all life that is where the problem starts. Answer these questions: 1. Is god omniscient? 2. Is god the sole creater of life?
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 8:43 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 9:00 AM | | Asgara has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 105 of 306 (213452)
06-02-2005 10:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 9:47 AM
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Re: Check mate
as he would also know what she done next. Exactly, though not in the way you are thinking. He would know what she did next, and next, and next....and would know the state of her belief at the moment of death. Do you deny this?
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 9:47 AM | | J. Davis has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 113 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 10:27 AM | | Asgara has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 142 of 306 (213534)
06-02-2005 1:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 113 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 10:27 AM
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Re: Check mate
What matters is that only if he says it's his will previously does it mean that it is his will for her to burn.
bold mine What you don't seem to see is that by creating someone in the first place, knowing that they will be atheists at death IS saying its his will.
There's a difference between God knowing she will end up in hell, and it being his will she ends up there Please answer the questions I asked before: 1. Is god omniscient? 2. Is god the sole creator of life? No one is arguing that mere knowledge makes it his will. It is the knowledge coupled with creating WHILE having the knowledge.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 10:27 AM | | J. Davis has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by jar, posted 06-02-2005 1:04 PM | | Asgara has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 144 of 306 (213537)
06-02-2005 1:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 11:19 AM
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Give it up mike, we know who you are and your argument hasn't changed since you've been around here.
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 11:19 AM | | J. Davis has not replied |
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