Why This Belief?

It all depends on whether you believe that truth is a relative concept to each individual or each faith versus believing that truth is an absolute value or reality. Jesus said that He was the Truth..the way...and the Life. No man came to the Father except through Him. If He was in fact God incarnate, it would not matter if there were a hundred other religions. It would not matter if there were a hundred other prophets. If Jesus was and is God incarnate, He truly is the only way!

We have yet to quantify the measure or essence of a thought...or two.

We have yet to quantify the measure or essence of a thought...or two. I mean that there is a source of wisdom. There is an origin of thought,and of consciousness, and of life. As a theologian, and through personal experience, I have found the origin to be God.
Human philosophy did not merely evolve. Intelligence has a designer, and His essence is captured in our best moments. I suppose that the mystery is our worst moments....what essence is THAT?

Not everything can be judged by accuracy if human intellect is the limit of the definition of accuracy. In one light, the Bible is highly "innaccurate." This does not mean that all of the philosophers and theologians who espouse its wisdom are mere dummies. Anyone who believes that may as well go worship the human "wisdom" of Dawkins or Sagan! Which is another way of asking if human wisdom is the origin and standard of credibility or whether the expression and definition of God as defined in a religious book is the description of a belief and an origin NOT of human will. It can be said that theology is more of a faith issue rather than a logic issue. The credibility of Faith can be questioned yet never logically refuted.The Bible can be easily criticized and refuted based upon human wisdom as an origin of truth but this book can NEVER be refuted based upon the definition and belief in the God contained within.As an example, if one believes that the Bible had human wisdom as its origin, one then believes that human wisdom is the origin of all written knowledge or expression.If one believes that the Bible was authored by humans under the unction and impartation of the Holy Spirit, then one has a belief in a higher power as the origin.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-04-2005 11:14 AM

This can be a good thing. People are tired of the same old religious tradition void of any power. Tired of T.V. hucksters who insult human intelligence. It worrys me that people such as Benny Hinn can teach thousands of people overseas their own brand of spirituality. The Bible warns of danger from Post Modern anything goes spirituality. This admonition does not refer to any particular belief. In fact, this scripture could apply to men who abuse the Bible itself.The Bible can be a sound book if it is not abused through human misuse.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-04-2005 11:33 AM

Good clarification! Spirituality is used to accentuate spiritual matters. Science is used to accentuate natural phenomena.Dawkins is no more a spiritual person than Ken Ham is a scientist.If anyone disagrees, than we now have a spirit vs spirit argument.

By all means, Yes! Some of us have had intense religious experiences in which we were so affected as to have no logical alternative. Others of us have examined religion and found it deficient in the logic that they needed. Faith has to personally affect you.I believe that we as humans never "find" God. He "finds" us. It is then up to our logic to accept Him or to reject Him.Never choose a belief based on blind faith. Blind faith is only used once yiou have already found your belief. Blind faith is really unseeing the outcome yet trusting that it will be a good outcome.

I don't think that the metaphysical is necessarily off topic.Is this a method of defining truth?To me, the supernatural by definition is an unexplainable phenomena that could be entirely un-natural yet entirely experienced.One time I distinctly heard several voices at once coming from a person who had no idea that it was happening. Were it a prank, I would have eventually known. Unexplainable? Definitely! Superbnatural? Maybe.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-05-2005 01:34 AM

I wanna hear about the day that you went crazy!

We have discussed this before. Some say that the Devil was not Gods will. Others quote Isaiah: I have brought up the point that God never actually created Satan. Rather, He created a freewill Lucifer who chose to become Satan. God never created fallen angels as fallen. He never created fallen humanity as fallen. He did create the possibility of disobedience which led to the Fall in both angelic and human realms.

Where did you ever deduce and conclude this?? Satan only has the power that people give him. Unfortunately, that is a lot of power. All of you who smugly think that human reasoning and wisdom has gone beyond the "god myth" are actually playing right into satans hands. I won't argue the point, however. It is best for you to do your best with what you believe.

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"It is as impossible for man to demonstrate the existence of God as it would be for even Sherlock Holmes to demonstrate the existence of Arthur Conan Doyle."
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"Religion points to that area of human experience where in one way or another man comes upon mystery as a summons to pilgrimage."
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"People are prepared for everything except for the fact that beyond the darkness of their blindness there is a great light. They are prepared to go on breaking their backs plowing the same old field until the cows come home without seeing, until they stub their toes on it, that there is a treasure buried in that field rich enough to buy Texas. They are prepared for a God who strikes hard bargains but not for a God who gives as much for an hour's work as for a day's. They are prepared for a mustard-seed kingdom of God no bigger than the eye of a newt but not for the great banyan it becomes with birds in its branches singing Mozart. They are prepared for the potluck supper at First Presbyterian but not for the marriage supper of the lamb".Frederick Buechner

Yes. However, free will as a concept is much the same as letting your child go off into the night trusting that they will avoid drunk drivers, lecherous perps, and seedy drug dealers. If they O.D. at 1 a.m., that is on them and not on the parents. (Hey--you raise them as best as you can, right?)You are going to claim that God has the power to foreknow and thus stop all evil from occurring. I will counter that with the premise that God allowed a created society to
1) Be free to choose...leading to evil as a bad choice.
This caused evil to exist in the human realm.(Not our fault personally..but our responsibility collectively)
2) Gave us a way out of it through Christ. Another choice which you personally do not have to make. (Why rebel?)You have considered the "God" concept and found it lacking. You have thus adapted a human wisdom concept of collective responsibility.I will agree with human wisdom. We are individually responsible for our decisions in life as well as our choices.I will also agree that many Christians are none too bright.
We need to learn to grow up and think for ourselves.I still believe that God is alive, however. My choice to commune with Him as often as possible may be seen by outsiders as a contrived crutch.I often wonder why these outsiders think that by taking all responsibility upon themselves that they can reasonably take on a universe of uncertainty with nothing more to have faith in than their own evolutionary potential.I prefer worship of a Creator over mere biological adaptations within
(an evolving) creation. (conclusion: We both have a point. Humans need responsibility yet they also need communion with a living Creator.)This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-07-2005 08:11 AM

maybe... However the flaw in YOUR analogy is that if we are the 5 year olds, we have the ability to "wish" our parents away...as if they did not exist.God...our loving parent...stands near and watches His rebellious 5 year old who wants a world without omnipotant parental authority. He is letting you attempt to grow up without Him. Lets see how far humanity gets with this one! Don't think He won't step back in again when we as a species fall flat on our frontal lobes!This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-07-2005 02:57 PM

I theorize that God knows that some of His kids need to grow on their own...such as you have, Schraff. He is not neglecting anything...He is merely allowing you to ride the bike without His crutch training wheels....if my theory is right He will make Himself evident in your life at a later date. Until then, neither of us can comment except as to our feelings for Him or our indifference to Him.