Why must we believe *before* we die?

All of scripture or none. The Gospels recording of Jesus words have equal weight if all is inspired and inerrant. Jesus raised the stakes in a world doing it's best (and probably succeeding to a reasonable degree) to adhere to Mosaic law (10 commandments). Most listening who wouldn't have committed Mosaic adultery would have been shaken by Jesus telling them that "if you so much as look at a woman with lust in your heart you have committed adultery"Jesus set an impossible standard. He never implied that trying to achieve the standard would suffice. He said unless you reach the standard you are doomed. No one can reach the standard that Jesus set. All are doomed by the standardWhich kind of ties in with Pauls telling us that the purpose if the standard (or law) was not that we achieve it. The purpose of this high standard - Gods standard - is to show us that we can't reach it this standard. "The law is a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ" - the only one who could reach the standard on our behalfIts all got to fit. If it doesn't it may be that scripture doesn't tell us enough to know for sure. But speculation isn't a route here. Silence is. As far as mechanism of salvation however, scripture is anything but silent. Salvation by faith does, Salvation by trying your best doesn't. Trying your best is not in scripture....

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I'm afraid discussion on your basis is not possible for me Legend. It is possible (if challenging) to investigate to see if it is consistant with itself internally but impossible to say anything for certain if it is exmained with a view to the external. The discussion would just turn into another "this theory, that theory, the other theory" about whatever piece was under discussion.That teachings appear to conflict for example could be exmained internally to see if they do. I suggest there are none - if the internal comparison is done (which would indicate at least something uncanny, if not inerrant, about scripture). But if one account is dismissed - by your educated guess - then we get into a discussion about educated guesses and whether this schools educated guess is better than the other schoolsThanks but no thanks

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

A pretty clear, pretty simple statement of salvation by works/trying this is not. My comment about passports was simply to illustrate that the righteous will have attributes of righteousness. A passport doesn't make you Irish it is an attribute of being Irish. It's an analogy Jar. Just an analogy Why then is this not mentioned in the bible in relation to salvation. "Do unto" not "Try to do unto". "Love thy neighbour" not "try to love thy neighbour" Where is the mechanism "try and you will be saved" If everybody and his brother gets that message then it must be somewhere obvious for all but us Christians to see. When I say clear I mean as clear as the statement for example "It is by faith you are saved not by works". Just in relation to 'trying'

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Paul was writing to Christians - not any old body. The church in Rome, in Galatia, in Corinth etc. These are pastoral letters written to people who are believers. Every discourse at the beginning of his letters makes that clear that he is talking to those who are saved. His exhortation to 'try' is to people who are already saved. Not to people who are not. "You are a son - act like one" is a theme throughout all these letters if you want to travel that path a bit..You've mentioned "salvation by trying" (I presume you mean God forgives all except those who don't try (hard enough) -thus salvation relies on trying). Have you got something other than tenuous regarding that. Something clear, specifically linked to trying like "it is by faith you are saved - not by works"Like, I gave about a dozen non-works related verses which ascribed righteousness via faith/belief. If salvation-by-trying is a cert then there must be some direct statement supporting this.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

If two accounts appear to contradict each other we must first decide whether they do indeed contradict before figuring which is correct. And that must be done internally. Measuring scripture against scripture - as the saying goes.The workshop manual for my Yamaha says, "release the front wheel nut" in one place. In another it says "tighten the front wheel nut". I can assume contradiction or I might look at context and purpose of the particular passage where this is said. But the manual as a whole should not contradict itself internallyI suggest I have a decent overview say of the mechanism of salvation. I would discuss apparent contradiction in the light of that overview - not take statement out of that context. Within context they fit perfectly

Okay. I misread you. Some believe (Roman Catholicism) of salvation involving works (trying). Your stance is salvation as default and salvation can be lost by not trying. Not "salvation by trying" but "damnation by not trying". That is different.For that to operate there should be biblical evidence of two things:a) All are saved by default (not "salvation open to all" - which is potential not a given)b) This default salvation can be lost by behavior (which is different than Jesus for example, setting the attaining of all the standard as being the criteria)Matthem 25 says the sheep go to the right and those on the right go to heaven. Pretty clear here but also ties in with the sheep theme throughout the bible: passover lamb, lamb of God, sacrificial lamb, "my sheep hear my voice" (Jesus), spotless lamb, good shepherd etc.By all means show how you figure the goats are the followers

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This is one of those verses which underscores a vital point when it comes to reading scripture, to whit "Don't take a verse in isolation and form a doctrine on it - examine it with a view to the whole"Some things which are clearly laid out in the Gospel:- man is spirit and flesh (body,mind). From birth his body is alive but his spirit is 'dead'. The ultimate meaning of death in the bible always means separateness from God. Adam and Eve 'died' spiritually and were what?.... Ejected from the Garden = sepatateness from God. Jesus 'dying' on the cross was him being....separated from God.- a dead spirit, unsurprisingly, cannot understand the truths of God because "these are foolishness to him because they are spiritually discerned". Dead spirits don't discern- God is the one who has to breath life into the dead spirit. Thus 'born again' or 'born from above' or 'born of the spirit' etc. God saves a person.- when this happens, a number of things occur at the same time: the person is saved, they are at peace with God(as opposed to being at war - even if THEY didn't view it that way), they become children of God. In relation to this verse, Gods Spirit comes reside in the person. Why?- It is the persons spirit which has this new life - not his flesh. Sin resides in the flesh and wars - literally - with this new life inside. There is thus a tension within. The persons spirit now understands the things of God and wants the things of God but the flesh wants what it always wants the things of Sin and Death. The Holy Spirits role is to come alongside the persons spirit and struggle against this opposing force. And it is a struggle - ask any Christian. This ongoing process is called Sanctification - where the person is 'conformed to the likeness of Jesus'. They literally become more and more like Jesus. More able to resist temptation, to love, to have compassion (which would cause them to reach out to others with the same news they received - which might explain why God did it this way). It's a lifelong process until finally the flesh dies at whatever age it does.- There are exhortations all over the New Testament along the lines of "realise what you are - a son of God- act like one, struggle against sin, resist Satan and he will flee, you are a temple of the holy spirit (ie: he resides in you) it is inconsistant to act as if you were like you were before" etc, etc.Your verse is another of many such exhortations."Work out your salvation..." Many take "Work out" to mean "Figure out". What Paul is saying is to "work" it out, "extract" it out, "squeeze" it out, "push" it out...what? Your salvation. You are saved, now let the knowledge of that fact be worked out of you in a practical sensse. Let it bear fruit. Let it be seen by God and by others that this has happened. Let your overwhelming thankfulness be evidenced in ways that make a difference, that bring glory to the God who did this incredible thing for you. Don't become a "Christian on Vacation" who locks their salvation up in a drawer and carries on as if nothings happened. Become what the bible describes you as - a Christian in enemy (Satan) occupied territory. An alien. A Christian at war. Get to work....Work it: out..."With fear and trembling" The Christian fears God but it is not a craven fear, a fear that causes him to shrink back. It is a Godly fear. Awe and a feeling of minisculness when exposed to how big he is. Trembling is not always bad either. Who hasn't trembled with pleasure in their lives?"for it is God that works within you"God works in us, through us and with us. Hopefully you will see that this work doesn't refer to salvation (although he does the work there too) it refers to sanctifying work God commences once a person is saved"he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion until the day of Jesus Christ" Santification is a process that begins day 1 (after new life) and continues until it is finished. Until the person is made fit for heaven. "for nothing unclean shall enter heaven"That help Robin?This message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 10:27 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

How do you figure. Can you give something where Jesus says "this is how you are saved" which conflicts with Pauls "this is how you are saved"? Especially in relation to the assertion that it is by works or by trying Whether it is true of not has nothing to do with this. We're just looking at whether it contradicts itself internally or not. You could come to the conclusion that it doesn't after some discussion. That doesn't make it true. It could be that this 'fable' is just a well put together fable. The claim is that it contradicts ITSELFNo assumption of truth is required to do that. No inventions either. Either scripture backs up scripture and the whole is consistant - or it isn't.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 11:03 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

What is there about this passage that indicates works = salvation that differentiates it from works being a consequence of being saved. Note the reaction of people who had believed in Acts 4:31-32. Filled with the holy spirit > believed > generosity followed. When God moves in people change.How to be saved in Luke 10:27: "love God with all your heart, soul, mind" and "love your neighbour as yourself". Absolutely correct. Two key words "all" and "as". Now, hands up anyone who can say they've done this. Assuming there are none so foolish, then we are back to "Try to love God/Neighbour..." which Jesus didn't say. He tells us what is required for salvation - he didn't say it was possible to do it by ourselves. Jesus is talking about his second coming here - not salvation. And he is. But close to salvation is not saved. What's the thing that seals the deal as it were. More love just means closer. Closer and closer... Read the passage and note the Acts-like sequence mentioned above: I don't know what version of the bible you have but no matter.Verse 3: "sought to see Jesus" ("seek and you shall find", "knock and the door will be opened to you").Verse 4: "ran" and "climbed" to "see Jesus". More seeking, urgency - recognition of his need for Jesus.Verse 5: "Jesus... saw him" presumably, as always amongst the throng. Jesus is seeking to save the lost (see verse 10) "Jesus says "today I must abide at your house" (Jesus Rev 3:20: "Behold I stand at the door and knock - if any man hears my voice and opens the door (choice is ours) I will come in and dine with him and he with me). Zach is opening the door. Zach is responding to the knock.Verse 6: "received him joyfully" (John 1:12 "some however did receive Him and believed in Him; so he gave them the right to be called children of God."). Zach is converted at this point. Watch the Acts like result...but first a topical verse...Verse 7: The only comment a works-adherent can make. ("Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone")Verse 8: A transformed Zach. What made him say this. What caused him to climb the tree, run, seek, obey Jesus instructions to come down. What caused such overflowing generosity. An exposure to Jesus that others, by mere sight, weren't gettingVerse 9: Salvation had come indeed - but Jesus gives no indication in his words that it was Zachs action that did it. On the contrary...Verse 10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and save the lost" Jesus is the one who does the saving - not man or his actionsVerse in isolation can be made mean anything. This is one of a multitude of expositions that can be made of any salvation passage The complete mechanism must be shown: seeking, realisation of need, God responding, receiving Jesus/believing in Jesus/becoming a child of God, becoming 'like' Jesus.Receive/believe/become. That's the sequence.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 02:43 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 02:48 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I can't say that I disagree with a thing you said here. Except maybe the 'no works' involved in salvation. I don't know which country you live in but in Ireland the teaching indicates that works are involved:- not committing a mortal sin
- following the teachings of the RC church
- being baptised into the churchAs a RC friend put it. In his view, Christ opened to way up to heaven. It is up to the Catholic to climb the stairs and enter heaven. I said "involved works" rather than only works (faith + works = salvation as I have heard it put). Would that be accurate? Can the actions you take loose you your salvation. Like, if you renounced your faith, became an athiest, persecuted the RC church and murdered people etc would you still be saved and go to heaven?

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Your quoting Luke!(p.s. There is no record of him hearing/seeing the Lord. He also happened to be a travelling companion of Paul. Whats the problem quoting Paul?)

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

You tell me. You've decided that Jesus is responding to Zachs words immediately prior to Jesus proclamation. But are not taking into account anything else in the account. On what basis do ignore everything bar this one statement of Zachs? Consider John 3:2-3Nicodemus: "Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him"Jesus: "Verily, verily I say unto thee. Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."Jesus does not respond to the only thing Nicodemus has said to him*. On what basis must Jesus respond to the thing that is said to him in the verse prior to his response? From this (and other examples - Jesus did this quite regularily) - patently none. Context means context. If the works = salvation case was made, then this bit would back up your argument. But the case isn't made by this statment of Zachs.Edited typosEdited: Nicodemus was Pharisee, a member of the Sanhedrin - the ruling council. He was a respected member of the very stock that would put Jesus to death. Nicodemus comes to him under the cover of darkness. "We know..." when they patently didn't, covers what his actual motivation was "I know..."Jesus looks at Nicodemus' motivation. Though hiding, evading Nicodemus is attracted to Jesus. It's Nicodemus' motivation Jesus see's. Nicodemus' heart. And that is what Jesus speaks to. It's what he speaks to in all of us. Our heart inside - not the front outside.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 04:04 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 04:36 PM

No, but you can use them to show there is no contradiction with Paul. Lets say for a moment that you accept Paul teaches salvation by faith not works. Now we look at the Gospels to see what they say contradicts. Jesus said "with all your heart, soul and mind" And I asked who has done this - with all their heart, soul and mind. Without skipping to the assertion (not contained at all within the text you present) that this means doing your best - answer the demand of Jesus. Have you done this with all your heart, soul and mind available to you. I suggest you haven't. I suggest you know that there have been plenty of times in your life that you have chosen to do precisely the opposite. You have not thus, followed Jesus command which brings salvation. Me neither. No one has.This line verse does not make your case. They portray Jesus teaching that if you behave perfectly you will get to heaven:- rich man did 'everything'. Jesus says be perfect and "give up riches". Man can't do perfect on his own- "let your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees". How could people exceed the very highest standard of righteousness by which anyone could measure themselves? Man can't exceed the unexceedable on his own- "all your heart, soul and mind". I didn't see anyone raise their hands and say they do this. Man patently can't do this - on his own.Jesus showed that the standard is too high for man on his own - they need him to reach it for them. "Come to me...." Jesus says. Paul shows that the standard is to high - for man. They need Jesus to do it for them. Wheres the contradiction?

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

It is curious that the author of Acts, Luke, who records Pauls missionary journies and accompanied him too didn't mention that Paul was coming up with a completely different Gospel to the one he wrote about in his own Gospel? Is he not in a better position to know than anyone else? Why does he record Pauls heresy without a murmur. Why does he put himself in danger (because Acts records frequent trouble whenever the gospel was preached) spreading a Gospel he knew to be false.Either Luke wrote his gospel before Pauls missionary journies giving the above problem. Or he wrote them afterwards in which case he didn't take the opportunity to correct Pauls heresy.You may come up with an elaborate theory but the most obvious answer is the answer that lies to hand: Luke had no problem with 'Pauls gospel'. Also recorded in Acts is the reaction of the church at large when false teachings begin to creep in. The heresy? Legalism...doing stuff...works..

Jar...there's an awful lot of speculative 'if's' and would be's in your post. This would be okay to elaborate on a point the passage made. But the point isn't made.Last verse. Righteous go to eternal life. There are only one group called righteous in the passage. The sheep, the ones on the right. There is no talk of a switch of righteousness in the passage. Speculation that this switch could take place for reasons you give is not shown here.It ain't witching hour yet but yeah I'd have to take this up with you again...heresy hunter that I am