Nature and the fall of man

Although your question is not addressed to those who do believe in the Fall, just for the sake of stating that position, as a baseline or something, here's
The Longer Westminster Catechism on the subject. See from Question 17 on.And here's The Shorter Catechism with long footnotes of scriptural support. Q. 19 describes the spiritual and physical consequences of the Fall.A couple of links on the history of the Catechism: Wikipedia, and The complete report on the Westminster Assembly; see Chapter 5.A brief history of the Catechism. {Turns out this link only goes to a registration page for the Britannica}{ABE to add better historical refs than the Britannica}This message has been edited by Faith, 12-28-2005 05:00 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 12-28-2005 05:02 PM

You keep zeroing right in on it. Fun to watch.

Good word, piety. Yes, a piety that tenderly protects the rights of cancer and bacteria. Getting those priorities straight.

That's a very perceptive analysis I'd say. Of course from my point of view it's just a way to get rid of the 2000-year-old religion without facing up to that motive.

Interesting how mathematics and the imagination are all that continue to reflect the (pre-Fall) Original Perfection then.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-27-2005 04:42 PM

This bit of absolute dogma you know by divine revelation perhaps?This message has been edited by Faith, 12-27-2005 04:41 PM

Do you believe with jar that the system is perfect, just not the products of the system, or with robinrohan that that's a logical non sequitur? Or course not. He Himself is the only perfection. His Creation was once perfect too, however, until the Fall. But some think that this broken world is REALLY perfect as is, disease, death and all. It's all Nature to the nature-worshipers. I gather at least you don't believe that.

Sorry, I do have a habit of rethinking my posts, and don't always put in the "ABE" signal that I've done so. But the idea is the same, simply more pithily worded I hope.But I don't want to take this thread from robinrohan. He was doing a very entertaining job of dealing with his opponents.

You're right, I should have left you to argue with jar and not intervened.

I posted a link to The Westminster Catechism, that lays out the official position of one branch of the church on the Fall and its consequences, in Message 6.

Very. That's why I included a link to the Shorter Catechism, and that one has the benefit of lengthy footnotes to scripture.But on the Fall you only have to read the section of the Longer starting at Question 17 -- ten or twelve questions or so is all. Message 6

You cut right to the heart of the matter. But maybe you mean If no Fall, no GOOD God.

Yes, but if you don't say it you get the answer some around here like to give, that there's no problem with the idea of God, we simply have to realize that God is a cruel tyrant.

Epicurus was like most of humanity, incapable of seeing the inherent flaw in ourselves that explains it all.

Don't think this is a peculiarly western notion. In my investigations of Eastern religions on my way to Christ, I encountered views of Samsara that included both hells and celestial realms or paradises in the afterlife, or the in-between lives, all related to the concept of karma, or how many good deeds versus bad deeds you had accumulated in your previous life. These were all temporary and led to yet another physical life in which you had a new chance to do better.{ABE: Realized you were talking about something different, sorry.}I understand Nirvana to be a stepping out of the entire wheel of multiple incarnations so that you no longer have to go through them, but what it is experientially I have no idea -- the descriptions don't convey anything clear. Funny thing, before I was fully a Christian but already most interested in Christianity, I had some "supernatural" experiences, some beautiful, some scary (I was high as a kite as it were on the supernatural) and a Buddhist friend of mine told me that one of them I described to her was a Satori, which I'd thought was an exclusively Buddhist experience. Since you appear to have experience in things Buddhist or Eastern, how do you understand that term?To try to relate this obviously off-topic post back to the topic, it's interesting that nothing explains why we are subject to good and bad states in any religion other than Biblical Christianity. They are simply taken for granted. The Fall is a most satisfying explanation.This message has been edited by Faith, 12-30-2005 01:57 PM