Nature and the fall of man

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So if I get cancer, that's bad for me but good for the cancer, which after all, has a right to live too.

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IMO, what you are presenting is not the same as what jar is presenting.Cancer is cellular. Something within our own body that has run amuck. There are studies at the cellular level using natural nutrients to turn on the cellular program to stop the cancerous cells or have them commit suicide (apoptosis).Even outside influences that may cause cancer are usually manmade and not from nature, IMO.

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If a baby is born with a severe birth defect, that's bad for the baby, but good for . . . good for. . .

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Whether you like to hear it or not, the birth defect is bad for the baby, but good for the species.In the natural course of things, those born with severe defects probably would not live and therefore not procreate. So the genetics of those parents with a defective gene or gene combination would not continue.It's just the way the system works.Now there are also manmade reasons for birth defects. I assume you would not attribute these to God or his system. Hopefully mankind learns from his own mistakes.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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A plague sweeps across Europe and kills untold numbers who suffer and die. That was bad for the people, of course, but good for the plague bacteria (not so good for the rats either).

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It has nothing to do with being good for the bacteria. It is good for the overall balance.The system has checks and balances. When a deer population is too large for their area and their isn't enough food, the deer start to get sick and die. The illness brings the population back to a reasonable level. The survivors have plenty of food.IMO, some of the diseases suffered by civilized man is due to overpopulation.Humans need to function within the system just like the rest of creation. They are subject to the checks and balances just like the rest of creation. Oddly enough mankind keeps messing up the system not fixing it, mainly because he can't see the big picture, and because we think it was made for us to do with as we please, IMO.The Bible is geared around humans, not God's system. The Bible doesn't support a change in the system because of one man's decision and doesn't support that man is supposed to fix anything except himself.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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They died from the plague, not starvation.

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I didn't say the deer died of starvation.

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And anyway, there weren't that many people back then to begin with.

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Supposedly the group to die first numbered in the tens of thousands. Sounds like a lot of people to me.The rats were probably the overpopulated group. Unfortunately the crowded overpopulated, unsanitary living habits of mankind made them victims of the disease also, because the rats headed there for food. Trade routes made it possible for the disease to spread.Mankind tends to create many of their own problems.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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Mankind didn't create the plague.

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I didn't say they did, but their lifestyle at the time, gave it food to grow. Natural disasters happened before mankind's time and during mankind's time. Sometimes they affect a few creatures, sometimes all creatures.It has nothing to do with man's behavior. It is just the way the world works. If he didn't stop them before mankind, why stop them after?Natural disasters are part of living on this planet. Gotta take the good with the bad.Just because we think we are more important than anything else on the planet, doesn't mean we are.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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The values thus are not things love, individual rights, ethics of helping the poor and weak, but the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. The values of evolution are dark indeed.

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That's because Jesus wasn't teaching about evolution or how nature functions. Jesus was dealing with the human condition; human behavior and relationships.Evolution is not a living thing that holds values (the social principles, goals, or standards held by an individual, class, society, etc.). I look at it as the base operating system.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

From my limited understanding of Judaism, I feel that they do not support the Fall or Original Sin viewpoint.From "Understanding Judaism" by Rabbi Benjamin Blech, we have: You might find this interesting from a book by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto entitled "The Way of God"- Now the author continues by stating that every fault is merely the absence of God's good and the concealment of His presence. IOW, closeness to God and illumination of His presence is the root and cause of every perfection that exists, while concealment of His presence is the root and cause of every fault and the degree of deficiency depends on the degree of this concealment.This Jewish perspective would support that nature has always been the same, but how it affects mankind depends on man's behavior, IMO. I think this belief is also reflected by the warnings of the prophets.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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Man or men?

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Seems to cover both.The flood wiped out all but seven supposedly.Even though Pharoh was the one who wouldn't let the Hebrews go, the Egyptian people suffered through the plagues. I think the Hebrews suffered through some of those plagues also.Doesn't really go along with the "each dies for his own sins" concept does it.If this is the way God uses nature to discipline, then I guess it is wise to invest in a flack jacket.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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If no Fall, then no God.

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Big jump.I would say if no Fall, then faulty tradition.The Fall is necessary for the Christian religion, not necessarily all other religions or for the existance of a God.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

Why must one negate the other?

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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If evolution is true, there was no Fall.

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OK, but there can still be a god.

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If there was no Fall, there is no explanation for the arbitrary suffering caused by nature.

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No explanation you like anyway. I'm not sure what you see as arbitrary suffering caused by nature. Can you give one simple example, that bothers you? Just one.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This is something that goes wrong inside a woman's body. I don't think they have pinpointed anything specific, but there can be many things that alter fetal development. Bad gene combination, faulty genes, parents too closely related, etc.Is it arbitrary if a certain combination of situations always causes this problem?Do I take it that you also consider miscarriages to be an arbitrary attack of nature?I'm a bit confused by your personification of nature since there is no conscious thought behind the process from an evolutionary viewpoint.Anomalies happen. I don't see any evil intent behind them.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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It's the fact that we have no logical ground for any moral rule is what tells us our rules are subjective.

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Maybe someday you'll expound on that thought and actually show that there is no logical ground for any moral rule.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz