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Author | Topic: Death before the 'Fall'? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Where does the Bible say God killed the animal(s) that Adam and Eve's clothes were made from? All we have about the killing of animals is the implication of Genesis 3:21: "And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins and clothed them" My opinion is that God killed the animals to obtain the coats. I also believe that this killing was the basis upon which Abel killed animals to offer to God. He did not see God do it because he was not born. He learned it from his parents. This offering of the slain animal must have been a God revealed procedure for thier worship. It foreshadowed the Son of God who would die and cloth the sinner with Himself as the sinner's righteousness before God. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of events which could have been significant and recorded in Genesis, the Spirit of God inspired the writer to include these selected events because of the plenary revelation of the entire Bible. This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-05-2006 12:14 AM
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
and if he didn't kill the animal, then it was already dead. death before the fall. (chances are it did not die directly because of the fall... that was adam's supposed fate. therefore logic would suggest it died before this alleged fall.)
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
oh, ruin a perfectly good sarcastic comment, will ya?
Wool from the sheep of course, they wore "skins" not "wool."
and milk from the goats. you mean they were just vegetarians, not full vegans? what about chicken? fish? lobster? oh, wait, that's out.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
"And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins and clothed them" My opinion is that God killed the animals to obtain the coats. couldn't god have created them out of thin air like everything else?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
Yep, I knew about that verse, but, as has been pointed out, it doesn't state that God killed the animals that the clothes were made out of. The animals could have died of natural causes, or a predator may have killed them, it does not say God killed anything, you are adding to the text. There is also the option of God speaking the clothes into existence. So, we still have no scriptural support for death before the Fall, it is becoming more and more likely that this is yet another fundy gimmick. Brian.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I was so waiting for my nails to dry and your sarcasm just yelled for a total ruination.
As far as the skin thing, some Jewish beliefs carry the thought that A&E were totally light, and when the big guy gave them skin, he really gave them skin, you know, like flesh.
quote:I was just providing possibilies other than edible. So don't overload my brain with your chicken and fish nonsense. But seriously, to like keep the herbivore population from totally overpopulating the planet, there were either meat eaters or the first people did some major sacrificing. Oh, nails dry! Later Babe There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You also do not just skin and animal and slip it on. To get from skin to hide to clothes is a fairly sophisticated process and takes more than 15 minutes.
They weren't no Off The Rack suits. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Mr. Ex Nihilo Member (Idle past 1366 days) Posts: 712 Joined: |
Adam: Eden is a long way off. We're getting further away from K-Mart.
God: You don't have to go to Eden to get a pair of skins at K-Mart. Adam: Have to go to K-Mart, Eden. God: What did I tell you, Adam? We're not going back to Eden and that's final. Adam: Gotta get my skins at K-Mart. God: WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHERE YOU BUY SKINS?! SKIN IS SKIN!! IT'S SKIN WHEREEVER YOU BUY IT!! IN EDEN OR WHEREVER!! Adam: K-Mart! God: You know what I think, Adam? I think this not knowing good from evil is a bunch of $h!t! Because you can't tell me that you're not in there somewhere! Adam: Skins. K-Mart!
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Jman Inactive Member |
When reading the Bible it is important to understand that everything in it was written by men. In the case of the old testament this would be following many hundreds or thousands of years of oral story telling. In the case of the new testament usually through professional scribes which was the custom of the day. Scribes were literate men, fluent in many languages, especially greek. The Bible, I might ask which Bible because there are so many versions and editions, and it is a great mistake to ignore the Catholic text in which there are two stories of creation, that we see today is the complex result of the influences of men over the years. Better to trust the "spirt of the text" than to get trapped in a maze of questions.
There really is another way to determine at least a hint of what the story is really saying. To make sense of any religious text it is necessary to develop the ability to look behind to understand the author. Another way to put it is to realize the esoteric beneath the exoteric. The story of Adam and Eve is very much like those instances in the new testament where we see the authors using parables to illustrate a teaching. If you read carefully you will see that on the sixth day God created man.... man and woman he created and told them to go forth and dominate the Earth. On the seventh day we hear about Adam and Eve and the fall. Plainly the Earth was well populated with humans before Adam and Eve left the garden. This is why Cain was able to go the land of Nod to find a wife. Consider again the story of A&E and the garden. This is a parable . It's purpose was to relate the advent of the first true humans, the first in God's image, on Earth. All those other people were the results of the long years of evolution. When God saw they were ready, meaning the physical humans were evolved enough, His Spirit was infused in them. This began the sons of god on Earth and was the beginning of the end of the sons of men. Human souls do and have always existed separately from the bodies. They do not reside in our bodies, they are only connected to them, nor are they subordinate to the personality. Personalities are almost strictly temporal. If a man suffers injury which has a negative effect on his personality it is known by God because God looks to the soul to make the permanent and true judgement of the character of the man, and salvation is a word which describes the goodness of a man as told by the repository of his history. His soul! The soul is the part of us which is eternal, made in the image of God. The body is of no consequence beyond this life. This is the true meaning. The references to the vengefullness of God is only the best interpetation of the mysterious stories by men of the day. They spoke with conviction but a man to them was just what they saw in others. And God who they knew inately and through tradition, was an authority figure to be feared and obeyed. These attributes where common in those days of people living in family groups and to view the world in those same terms was for them quite normal. Now if we take a look at that A&E story again perhaps we can see that the story recounts truthful events cloaked in the filters of understandable ignorance. We run into difficulties when we study God's creation without the ability to really see the events unfold. To do this it is only necessary to look behind the words. The Bible is true, but there are many layers to penetrate. At a certain point, deep inside the externals, there are no contradictions and the Word of God is clear. I've learned over the years that we humans have a talent for making easy things complicated. Brian there are many who know more than they say. If a preacher was to depart too far from the expected parameters he or she might suffer as a result. It is also true, very true that most people do not need to be concerned. It's really not necessary to have a successful and meaningful life. When a man wants to know however, he deserves to have the opportunity to hear more so he can decide on his own. I preach a lot but I don't care much what others say or how they react. You may be sure that I believe what I say and that my deductions are the result of decades of study. Jacob
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Jacob,
Welcome to EvC. A few suggestions.
Again, welcome and enjoy. Thank you This message has been edited by AdminJar, 01-07-2006 11:33 AM
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pianoprincess* Inactive Member |
When reading the Bible it is important to understand that everything in it was written by men. The men were divinly inspired by God. The Bible isn't the words of men. God used the men to write his words.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
The men were divinly inspired by God. The Bible isn't the words of men. God used the men to write his words. Being divinely inspired and being a vessel through which God simply wrote down His word is not the same thing. Being inspired just means that the authors were motivated by their belief in God. People from all walks of life are inspirational to others, the members of the Civil Rights Movement, for example were inspired by Martin Luther King. This is different to the second claim you make, that God essentially wrote the Bible by using people as scribes. If this were the case then there really wouldn't be a need for any inspiration. Also, I don't believe that the Bible claims that God wrote it by using people as intermediaries, if you have some references that disagree I'd be happy to look at them. Finally, I agree with Voltaire, to make God the author of the Bible would mean that you make God into a being that is essentially very poor at science, history and geography. Brian.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pianoprincess
The men were divinly inspired by God. The Bible isn't the words of men. God used the men to write his words. How do you know the men were not decieved?
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pianoprincess* Inactive Member |
You mean God lied? lol =) I dont get it....
and when i say divinely inspired i mean God writing his words using men. not the inperation i get after hearing a cool song or somtin. different kind of insperation.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pianoprincess
What do they write that allows you to say that it is divine inspiration as opposed to imagination?
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