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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 230 (274660)
01-01-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
01-01-2006 6:58 AM


Re: Only after the Fall
Did God kick all the animals out of the Garden?
Do the worms left in the Garden that eat the fruit of the Tree of Life live forever?
Do the animals that eat the fruit of the Tree of Life live forever?
If a bat eats the fruit of the Tree of Life does it become a Vampire?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 01-01-2006 6:58 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 01-03-2006 8:22 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 230 (275497)
01-03-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Brian
01-03-2006 8:18 PM


Re: Only after the Fall
God hadn’t forbidden Adam from eating the fruit from the tree of life, does this mean that Adam was already immortal and thus it wouldn’t matter if he ate from that tree, or does it mean that Adam would, some time in the future, be allowed to eat from the tree of life and gain immortality, or does it mean something else?
Well, we can answer part of that from the contents of Genesis itself.
We know that Adam is not already immortal. If he was already immortal it would make no sense to chase them out of the Garden or waste an Angel with a flaming sword when the colt done already bolted the barn.
We also know that Adam had not yet eaten of the Fruit. Again, we can tell this from what is recorded in Genesis. GOD says "least they eat from the fruit". Had they eaten from the fruit it would make sense to say "continue".
Finally, if critters had been created immortal initially, there would have been no reason to put a Tree of Life in the Garden in the first place.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 01-03-2006 8:18 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 230 (276044)
01-05-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Brian
01-05-2006 6:09 AM


Re: References?
You also do not just skin and animal and slip it on. To get from skin to hide to clothes is a fairly sophisticated process and takes more than 15 minutes.
They weren't no Off The Rack suits.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Brian, posted 01-05-2006 6:09 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 230 (283854)
02-04-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by pianoprincess*
02-04-2006 2:21 AM


Remember the LGB? It's the reply button on the right, the one that you can use to link to a particular message so folk have a clue what you are responding to.
But back to the topic. If you read the Bible it says that there was death from the moment life was created, certainly from the moment the Garden of Eden was created, and in fact, nowhere in the Bible is there a Fall. It's just not there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 230 (283893)
02-04-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jaywill
02-04-2006 12:40 PM


Sorry, I don't see where that supports any change in the nature of mankind at all.
And it's just a collection of sayings, many of which are just plain stupid when viewed from a perspective where people have value. For example, consider the really stupid saying that comes just before the one you quoted.
27 "Look," says the Teacher, "this is what I have discovered:
"Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things-
28 while I was still searching
but not finding”
I found one upright man among a thousand,
but not one upright woman among them all.
And the one before that?
26 I find more bitter than death
the woman who is a snare,
whose heart is a trap
and whose hands are chains.
The man who pleases God will escape her,
but the sinner she will ensnare.
Please.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2006 12:40 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2006 1:24 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 230 (283906)
02-04-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by jaywill
02-04-2006 1:24 PM


Well, when you look at the source, there is nothing to show that mankind was created upright. If you actually read the accounts in Genesis, mankind was created with all the flaws already there.
The topic is whether or not death existed before the supposed Fall. According to the account in Genesis death existed from the very beginning, certainly from the creation of the Garden of Eden.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2006 1:24 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 230 (283929)
02-04-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jaywill
02-04-2006 2:22 PM


is there a goal other than understanding?
Is your reading and interpretation of the Bible driven by a desire to see in how many ways you can contradict mainline traditional interpretations of it by evangelical Christians?
No, not at all. In fact, it is exactly the opposite and points to why so many of the Evangelicals get it wrong.
I don't start with the conclusion. What I do is actually look at the evidence and let that determine the conclusion.
Too many Evangelicals start with the conclusion and then select only that evidence that supports their desired conclusion. That is called willfull ignorance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2006 2:22 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2006 4:05 PM jar has replied
 Message 101 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2006 4:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 230 (283960)
02-04-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jaywill
02-04-2006 4:05 PM


Re: is there a goal other than understanding?
There is nothing wrong with your being skeptical. Good for you. Any belief that is not challenged is weak and worthless.
I find your interpretations reactionary and provocative on general principle.
Even better. Perhaps they will encourage you to put aside your preconcieved conclusions and actually look at the evidence. It is only by becoming as a child, by tossing aside those fables and fantasies that were fed to you in your indoctrination, and actually looking with wonder at this universe that you will ever get to know GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 230 (283975)
02-04-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by jaywill
02-04-2006 4:19 PM


Moving on to the Flood Fable.
You now want to move on to one of the other fairytales. This has nothing to do with the creation myths and certainly nothing to do with the issue of whether there was death before some alleged Fall.
The only changes are shown in Gods perceptions, once again the God of the stories is show to be incompetent, to realize that he made a mistake, that maybe his original opinion wasn't correct.
Further in Genesis 1 the comment related to very good was related to the whole system.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning”the sixth day.
Mankind was only one of the components.
The story of the Garden of Eden comes in the older, more primitive version of the creation story found in Genesis 2 & 3. There is nothing in Genesis 1 that could imply any Fall at all.
So what we see reading the Bible is that in the older version, that found in Genesis 2 & 3, God creates a Tree of Life. If death did not exist in the beginning, then there was no point of creating a Tree of Life.
Later, another peoples in a slightly different era and culture, had a different creation story. The Garden of Eden was gone. The cloning was gone. The Tree of Good and Evil was gone. The man and woman are created from the dust, just like all the other animals. And it is this later tale, the one without the Garden of Eden, without the disobedience, without the serpent, that God finds very good.
Moving on to the Flood myths.
The flood myths are quite different from the Creation Myths and were treated differently by the redactors and editors that compiled the Old Testament.
In the creation myths, the editors and redactors included both tales, they ran them serially, and they placed the younger, the newer tale first. But the two flood myths are mingled together, mixed up into one disjointed tale. There is also the strange tale thrown in of the Nephilim.
So why did the editors treat these tales, these myths, so differently?
On possible reason is that the creation myths carry different messages while the two flood myths told basically the same.
To quote from the Catechism of Creation
Genesis 1 teaches that the one true God calls the universe into existence, and all of creation responds to God’s call. The creation has order and structure. It is transfigured and reveals God’s presence, but it is natural, not divine. It is dependent upon its Creator for its continuing existence and for all of the powers and capacities it possesses. Each element is declared to be good and the whole of it very good. Finally, Genesis 1 teaches that the Sabbath, God’s holy day of celebration and rest, is anchored in the act of creation.
While Genesis 1 emphasizes God’s transcendence or otherness from creation, Genesis 2, in poetic and metaphorical language, emphasizes God’s immanence or intimate relationship with creation. In the story of the making of the garden and of the first man and woman, God is present to every creature in creating it and giving it sustenance.
The two creation myths deal with different aspects of God's relations with man, and man's relations with God.
But throughout, and even into the flood myths, there is no signs of changes in man's behavior. In the oldest of them, the creation myth forund in Genesis 2 & 3, mankind disobeys GOD even before eating of the Tree of Good and Evil. Willfullness and disobedience are intrinsic to mankind. The big difference is that after eating of the fruit of teh Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil we had the capability of choice, a gain, not a fall. Mankind continues to behave just as created.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2006 4:19 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 230 (284047)
02-04-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by jaywill
02-04-2006 9:15 PM


First let me introduce you to the LGB
If you use the LGB, located at the lower right side of a message, it will notify the poster (if they have notify on) you have replied and also let the readers now which message you are replying to.
All I really hear you saying from your last post is "I don't believe it. It is a fairy tale."
I don't doubt that is all that you hear.
The rest of your post is but more assertion.
However, the record is here for all who read the thread.
I have tried to include examples and reasoning for any positions expressed as well as outside quotes for illustration.
Let the readers make there own decisions on whether or not there was death before the fall or even if a fall occured.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 230 (284295)
02-06-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by arachnophilia
02-05-2006 11:52 PM


Re: very good
IMHO it's important to remember that the Very Good statement is part of a whole different tradition and story then the Garden of Eden one. We have two different stories, by two different peoples at two different period, each depicting a different view both of God and of creation.
The very good comment comes near the end of the story, and is the beginning of the summation. It refers back to the whole of creation and is the prelude to the day of rest.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by arachnophilia, posted 02-05-2006 11:52 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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