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Author | Topic: Nature and the fall of man | |||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
It says how we got into this corrupted state where we are out of tune with everything, egocentric, desiring things we can't have, committing sin against our neighbor and against God. Apparently not completely out of tune. Otherwise we would not know we were out of tune.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Well, most of us don't I just meant that I've been walking around with this ideal "me" in my head which, of course, is a far cry from my actual self. I was assuming that most everybody else felt the same way. I suppose one might work that up into some sort of argument. If not for the Fall, I would BE this ideal "me," not merely have it in my head.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
5. Working with a different concept of what is good and what is evil. Even if I were a fundamentalist, I would have to choose number 5. If we have a different concept of good and evil than God does, then our ideas of good and evil are worthless. Conscience is a lie. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-02-2006 08:21 AM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I didn't have a clue that you were thinking about it in such personal terms I did not mean it to be purely personal. I was just using myself as an example and assuming others were like me. Suppose there was this fish who lived down deep in the ocean and never came anywhere near the surface. This fish can think. Now this fish can have no concept of "dryness," but he also has no concept of "wetness." If we were to interview him on a call-in radio show and asked him, "How does it feel to be wet your entire life?," the fish would answer, "I guess I don't understand the question. Are you asking me how it feels to be alive?" We are fish that have a concept of wetness, and even a glimmer about dryness. wetness--sense of the wrongness of the worlddryness--the ideal This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-02-2006 08:30 AM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
What we see as a bad thing does not make it an "evil" thing. It could certainly be a good thing from God's perspective. From one perspective, the Fall occurred and man brought suffering upon himself. Part of this suffering is caused by this change in Nature, through which, for example, birth defects occur. If there was no Fall, then the only way to explain the arbitrary suffering caused by Nature and still maintain the notion of God is to assert, as you are asserting, that we cannot see the whole picture and that what looks like totally unnecessary suffering is really somehow just or good and is not really suffering at all, and that all's right with the world. This is another way of saying that God works in mysterious ways, which explains nothing at all. In that way, ANYTHING can be explained away as our insufficient view of the whole. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-03-2006 09:41 AM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-03-2006 09:41 AM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
He set it up with the certain knowledge of the outcome. I don't think we want to get involved in a discussion about foreknowledge. Assuming freedom of will, the moral status of the Fall is connected to, in Christian terms, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You have an entire group--mankind--being punished, and then you have the same entire group having its moral debt paid. After that, the entire group is not judged anymore. Instead, individuals are judged. However, having the moral debt of mankind paid by the crucifixion does not restore nature as it was before the Fall. That's a puzzle.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
"The same entire group," that is, all of mankind, does not have its moral debt paid, only those who believe in Christ who pays it have it paid. And that group is not judged any more. What about those who lived between the Fall and the coming of Christ?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The covenant of grace was administered under the Old Testament, by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the passover, and other types and ordinances, which did all foresignify Christ then to come, and were for that time sufficient to build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they then had full remission of sin, and eternal salvation. This sounds like the covenant of grace was administered to the Jews. What about the Gentiles?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I personally think that particular chain of logic leaves a lot to be desired.. and the implications about what it would mean if true are being totally ignored. I don't see anything unreasonable about saying that God cannot make a round square. That's what your idea amounts to.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'm getting sick of your ability to get to the heart of a matter so neatly. Well, Faith, the ascetic life pays off in the end.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
And your wit is perfectly nauseating too Anyway, I appreciate the compliment very much.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Jar, this thread has to do with exactly what we were talking about earlier. How does your religion account for suffering?
Here's an example: birth defects. Those who believe in the Fall have their own explanation. What's your religion's explanation? This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-10-2006 06:19 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Birth defects happen. Has nothing to do with religion. Your God causes birth defects to happen. Why?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
LOL Really? I'm glad I'm amusing you, but could you answer the question?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
What question Charlie? You just seem to keep telling me what it is I believe. And yes, that really is funny and kinda cute. Right. I assumed that your God or Goddess or whatever it is created nature. If this God or Goddess created nature, then He or She is responsible for nature. Nature creates birth defects. Therefore, your God is responsible.
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