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Author Topic:   Why Atheists don't believe
EZscience
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 46 of 310 (311914)
05-15-2006 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 7:22 AM


Subjectivity in science
rR writes:

It would seem that all logical thinkers, and the scientific method seem to disregard anything that is subjective.

Not so. I have oftened pointed out that scientific insight is a combination of the objective and the subjective. We alternate between the objective and subjective, back and forth, repreatedly, when we struggle with scientific problems.

For example, when we collect data, and we seek to collect in as unbiased a manner as possible, we are striving for objectivity. But when we try to interpret these data, we form concepts and constructs in our minds that might be consistent with these observations. This is an entirely subjective process, but it must be 'proofed' (notice I didn't say 'proven') by constantly returning to an objective evaluation of the data and testing for conformity. Thus science has both an objective and a subjective component to its advancement, at least if you are a scientist seeking to advance it.

Subjectivity is not to be eshewed entirely, but it must be recongized as an internally-derived construct. The problems with subjectivity only arise when we fail to recognize it or apply when objectivity is required, as for example in the design of an experiment or other empirical endeavor.

Edited by EZscience, : spelling


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EZscience
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 47 of 310 (311915)
05-15-2006 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 7:22 AM


Re: Why I believe
rR writes:

Maybe you should say that when you get married, instead of I love you.

No, because that's a moment when subjective expression of feeling is clearly warranted - and certainly expected on the part of your spouse.


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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3632 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 48 of 310 (311921)
05-15-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 7:32 AM


riVeRraT writes:

I have "heard" of people in Africa with no knowledge of Christianity being called by God to do His work, there was no belief first.

That's hear-say anedoctal evidence. Doesn't count for much


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CK
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 49 of 310 (311922)
05-15-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 8:57 AM


Re: Unsure of context - Holy Spirit/Born Again questions
quote:
We believe it dwells inside us too.

No they believe it's a seperate thing - it does not form part of the trinity.

quote:
Perhaps study a bit more about it? There may be some misconceptions about it that you have.

No - I understand the concept of it pretty well.

quote:
I only asked you those question because you said you explored Christianinty. But I say there is still more to explore for you. I just want to encourage you to educate yourself more on it. It couldn't hurt you, you are impervious to being tricked.

I've no interest in doing that.


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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3632 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 50 of 310 (311923)
05-15-2006 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 8:57 AM


Holy Spirit/Born Again questions
riVeRraT writes:

For years, I called myself born again, because I thought that because I accepted Christ I was born again. God showed me different. It wasn't until He called me that I became born again, so I was kidding myself all those years.

Some people might think you're still kidding yourself. How would they know otherwise?


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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 51 of 310 (311928)
05-15-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 6:55 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
As children we have a propensity to believe what we are told. The default state is one of questioning. We believe what we are told because we trust out parents to tell us the truth.

In our formative years we have little discrimination. We are afraid of the monster under the bed, or believe in Father Christmas. When we get older we compare our beliefs with our society and our experience. From here we discard the ones that conflict with our society or experience.

Buts it's more complicated than that, what we learn growing up can in some people never change. You're stuck with what you grow up with. This can be seen Implicit and Explicit religiousity.

Being exposed to xian concepts is the only way to make a xian. The default position is very definitely not belief in christianity. We may learn to believe in anything. But only to what we are exposed to.


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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 310 (311947)
05-15-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
05-14-2006 5:11 PM


iano

If one had the evidence first then one would have no choice but to believe - which causes the notion of free-will to evaporate.

Perhaps I am being thick here but exactly how does having the truth of a situation made apparent violate your free will?


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 53 of 310 (311978)
05-15-2006 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
05-15-2006 11:04 AM


How can one freely chose to disbelieve that God exists if one is given irrefutable evidence that God exists? It seems to me that once you have the evidence then choice to disbelief is no more.

And any class of lesser evidence other than totally compelling can be explained away otherwise. Only tentitively of course - but tentitive is deemed sufficient to permit the choice for disbelief.

{AbE} ...and if people were thus compelled to believe that God existed would you not expect them to react other than in a free-willed fashion. A pack of fearful forelock-tuggers is what you'd end up with.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 62 by sidelined, posted 05-15-2006 1:44 PM iano has responded
 Message 69 by ramoss, posted 05-15-2006 3:22 PM iano has responded

kjsimons
Member
Posts: 665
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 54 of 310 (311982)
05-15-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by iano
05-15-2006 12:28 PM


Just to show you how vacuous your question is, I'm going to repeat but substitute in the word 'fire' for 'God'.

How can one freely chose to disbelieve that fire exists if one is given irrefutable evidence that fire exists?

There are many things that there are irrefutable evidence for, so according to you we don't have free will (I actually think that we don't, only the illusion of it).


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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 3945 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 55 of 310 (311983)
05-15-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 6:55 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
Oh, but He does. We are different from every other religion in that we are saved by faith. That's what believing is all about.

Every religion makes some similar claim about why they are unique.


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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 3945 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 56 of 310 (311985)
05-15-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by iano
05-15-2006 7:20 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
Jesus returns 161 million results

Sex returns 534 million results

I guess I should worship the sex god.

HAHAHAHAHAHA


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 310 (311988)
05-15-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by kjsimons
05-15-2006 12:39 PM


It would be helpful if the word you inserted had the objective of having you believe it exists without interfering with your free will to disbelieve.

But by accident you make a pertinant point. You have no (sane) way to disbelieve fire exists - right?. You have seen it with you own eyes. Thus You have no free will to disbelieve something you know exists. But you have free will to disbelieve something you don't know exists.

Once you believe in God and get the evidence then you can no longer disbelieve in him. You now know he exists. The step over is made free-willingly of course...


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CK
Member (Idle past 2239 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 58 of 310 (311989)
05-15-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
05-15-2006 12:42 PM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
hahahahahhah - I laugh not because of the result but because that's the first thing I did after reading Iano's post.

However I got

Jesus = 210,000,000

Sex = 713,000,000


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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 310 (311993)
05-15-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by iano
05-15-2006 12:28 PM


quote:
It seems to me that once you have the evidence then choice to disbelief is no more.

As is amply displayed on this very website, having been shown strong evidence in favor of something need not have any bearing whatsoever upon if someone decides to disbelieve something.

The human brain is like that.


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 310 (312000)
05-15-2006 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by nator
05-15-2006 12:59 PM


I think the example used was a right-before-you-eyes kind of evidence. If you've a time machine that we can hop into an fast forward back to watch evolution happen before our eyes then I'll book myself a place. What you offer -an inferred conclusion from science (which has been calibrated against the presumptions and assumption of...er...science) is not exactly what I had in mind.
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Replies to this message:
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