The first 3 chapters of Genesis

But you're the one who's making up stuff about what the world woulda/shoulda/coulda been like if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the tree.Where are your "facts" about what woulda been? Where are the facts about Eve's previous experiences in childbirth? Where are the comparative facts on Adam's workload before and after?It's all preconceived notions, not facts.

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Yes, it does seem to be another it's-obvious-because-robin-says-so thread.I like the way you delineate between the transcendent God and the personal God.
There are a lot of "implications" in the stories that don't depend on treating them like a comic book.

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Kinda like how a movie starts with a long shot to establish the scene and then zooms in on the main characters and action?

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You're the one who's injecting what isn't there: a fictitious world in which there is child-free childbirth and work-free gardening.

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No I'm not. I'm not saying there is no child-free childbirth or work-free gardening. I'm saying they're not in the story. If you think they are, cite chapter and verse instead of just repeating, "It's obvious."

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Chapter and verse?

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I "attended" evangelical fundamentalist church services when I was still in the womb. Since birth, I have heard thousands of evangelical fundamentalist sermons and Bible studies in dozens of churches.The first I ever heard the term "original sin" was when I read Robert L. Short's The Parables of Peanuts as a teenager.
I am certain that my parents both went to their graves never having heard of "original sin".I never heard of "the Fall" until much much later (and I'm sure my parents never did). The "fall from grace" that was mentioned in those churches is nothing similar to "the Fall" as described here at EvC.It was never taught as an event (though the Adam and Eve story was considered to be a historical event). Rather, their "fall from grace" was recognized as symbolic of all mankind's need for God's grace.I don't know what your idea of "mainstream Christianity" is, but it sure doesn't tally with my experience. Edited by Ringo, : Busted "The" down to "the".

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Not at all. I want to make the point that "the beliefs of Christianity" are not as monolithic as you make them out to be. Of course it does. It has every bit as much value as your personal opinion of what "the beliefs of Christianity" are. They are central beliefs of some Christians - not all. Once again, "Christian theology" is not monolithic. There are different versions and not everybody is privy to all of them. I was merely pointing out examples of that fact. I go about things my own way. Take it or leave it. There you go again, talking about "actual Christian belief". I told you about actual Christian beliefs that are closer to jar's than they are to the creationists'.(I'm a little surprized that you swallow what the creationists say about theology while at the same time decrying their thought processes about evolution. ) I'll repeat it again: I'm saying that there are facets of Christianity that you apparently know nothing about. You are essentially taking a position of ignorance.Once and for all: NOBODY is "representative" of mainstream Christianity. Who are you to decide what is "mainstream" and what is not?

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I don't think I have ever suggested that my views or the views that I have experience with were "mainstream". I really don't understand why you're so hung up on that word.Maybe what we have here is a problem of terminology. The evangelicals that I know (and that includes almost everybody that I know) don't consider themselves "mainstream" either. They would probably associate the "mainstream" with the broad road that leadeth to destruction. If you're going to continue to talk about "a mainstream of Christian belief", you are going to have to define more clearly what you mean by "mainstream". But you have not established that "original sin" or "the Fall" are part of that core. All we have is your unsubstantiated opinion. I'm quite happy with the effects so far. People tell me they like what I say, people I've never spoken to defend what I say.... It's going quite smoothly, thank you. Before you do that, please tell us what you mean by "mainstream". I don't know where you could have gotten the impression that I think I'm in the "mainstream". I went to some trouble (was it in this thread or another?) to point out that "majority opinion" is worthless in religion. When I said you were taking a position of ignorance, I didn't mean it as an insult. I meant that you admitted to not knowing much about Christianity and yet you presume to decide what is central to Christianity. You apparently didn't know that lots and lots and lots of Christians don't accept "original sin" or "the Fall", and you brushed that fact aside as unimportant when I pointed it out to you.You arrived at your conclusion based on incomplete information and you ignored further information that was supplied to you. That's what I call arguing from a position of ignorance. It's like the person who says, "I don't know what art is but that ain't art." If you read more carefully, I think you'll find that I have never claimed to represent anybody but myself. I'm not responsible for jar, but I haven't seen him claim to represent anybody else either. Until you can define "mainstream" for us, and specify who is in it and who is not, it is just a matter of personal opinion. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

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Swinging back toward the first three chapters of Genesis....Since the topic is specifically about the text of Genesis, shouldn't arguments be rooted in Genesis? Shouldn't external comments on Genesis - whether Biblical or extra-Biblical - be secondary to the text of Genesis?And, since Genesis is part of the Hebrew Bible, shouldn't the Jewish perspective carry some weight? (It is my understanding that Jews do not accept either "original sin" or "the Fall".)If so, then Christian beliefs - whether mainstream, core or otherwise - are not particularly relevant to this discussion.ABE: Apologies, AdminPD - I didn't see the warning. I think I'm somewhere in the neighbourhood of the topic though. Edited by Ringo, : No reason given.Edited by Ringo, : Spelling.

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Yes it does - but you dwell on the "bad" knowledge gained and ignore the "good" knowledge gained. It's the Knowledge of Good and Evil - remember? Selflessness, compassion, charity, etc. are also things that we become increasingly able to do with age.The only way to see a "fall" is to ignore the upward component of the vector. When added together, the components produce a lateral motion.

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A punishment is not a "fall".When we punish our children - if we do it constructively - we give them the oppurtunity to understand the consequences of their actions. In a sense, the punishment is the knowledge of good and evil.When we punish our children - if we do it constructively - it doesn't drive us farther apart, it brings us closer together.

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"Mystery Box! Mystery Box!", roars the audience.It would be a very short and boring show/Bible if they just took their prize and went home.

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Different culture, same story.

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Dogs are like that too. You tell them to get off the couch and they mutter to themselves, "I've already gotten off the couch six times. What more do you want?"No fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in their diet, apparently.

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