The first 3 chapters of Genesis

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The facts of the story include:

1. Women have pain in childbirth.
2. People work hard for a living.
3. People don't like snakes.

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You forgot a few things.Why we wear clothes and why there are thistles and thornbushes in the fields. The difficulties of agriculture.Oddly enough, clearing ground is what gives thistles a foothold. They tend to flourish in fallow lands and ruins.While we aren't too keen on thistles and thornbushes they are necessary for animals, which keep them in check.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I've been trying to find a clear statement of the fall doctrine, but it is a bit difficult. Unfortunately Wikipedia's Fall of Man is the closest I can find. I don't understand why going from innocent to knowledge is considered a fall. For our children that is an upward progression to maturity.Even Genesis 3 states: This doesn't sound like a downward movement. A&E already had the potential to sin before they gained the knowledge. The implication is that they just didn't know their actions could be considered wrong to those with the knowledge. (i.e. naked-ashamed) Just like a child until they are taught otherwise.I thought this comment in the Wiki article concerning Classical Biblical View of Original Sin was interesting. Which I think is what jar was saying or someone was earlier.I agree that descendants would not get to live in the garden of Eden due to A&E's actions or eat from the Tree of Life, but I don't agree that A&E's actions as depicted in the story caused descendants to have any more potential for sin than A&E did. The descendants just know when they are sinning.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Oddly enough when you look at what Paul wrote: So when we look at the A&E story they were able to do what they wanted except eat from the tree of Knowledge. Not that they never did anything we would consider wrong. If there are no rules, then there is no violation. So they were children who apparently weren't being disciplined or trained until they broke the one rule.Once they ate of the tree of Knowledge they knew that being naked was inappropriate.

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A punishment is not a "fall".

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I agree. God punished the Hebrews several times, but never disowned them supposedly.He lead them through the desert, not much separation there.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Sin was around before the law though.

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Sin is not a thing that thinks or moves. Sin is an action.I agree that right and wrong actions were around before they were deemed right or wrong.
Just like A&E walking around naked.Where does the A&E story imply a character stain? The punishment was for A&E. I don't see in the story where God states man's potential for misbehavior has changed. Our children are born not knowing any rules or what is right or wrong. They have to be given the knowledge by their parents.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Paul sees it otherwise. In personifying it he is telling us not what it is but also that it is not as you say it is. Sin it some kind of thing in and of itself.

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Personifying the action for evangelical purposes doesn't make it a thing in and of itself. Can you point to the thing called sin? Not the sinful action.The text links ashamed with naked not fallen. Their actions show that it was wrong to be naked.

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Thats begging the question PD.

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If something is begging a question then state the question. I don't know what question it begs.

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For clarification we would have to look elsewhere in the Bible - as you unconciously do when you infer God punishing them. How do you extract Gods actions as punishing without a sense of punishment drawn from elsewhere?

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Simple. People understood punishment or discipline or consequences, whatever you want to call it and the story was written for people to learn from. It was used before the rest of the Bible was written, so the audience couldn't use the rest of the Bible to help them understand the story.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz