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Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   The first 3 chapters of Genesis
nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 83 of 307 (349525)
09-15-2006 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
09-15-2006 3:12 PM


I'm interested in interpretation generally ...
I'll assume you are mainly concerned with the Adam and Eve story (rather than the separate creation story of Genesis 1).
My take is that this an early form of a "Just So" story. It was intended to explain the human condition in general. But its main emphasis was on human consciousness and what distinguishes us from other animals. Thus the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the central theme.
The tree of life is merely a side issue, to fill out the plot.

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nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 85 of 307 (349532)
09-16-2006 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
09-15-2006 11:55 PM


Robin is interested in discussing what the story SAYS, not what you think it means or why it was written.
You cannot separate what it says from why it was written. The latter provides the context for understanding the former.

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 Message 84 by Faith, posted 09-15-2006 11:55 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 86 by Faith, posted 09-16-2006 12:39 AM nwr has replied

nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 87 of 307 (349538)
09-16-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
09-16-2006 12:39 AM


"Understanding" it is not the point. Simply grasping what it actually SAYS in so many words is the point.
Understanding is grasping what it says.
Start with what the text actually SAYS.
The OP does ask about interpretation.
Text doesn't actually say anything. Rather, it conveys a message from the author. Thus one must consider the intent of the author. In this case it is particularly difficult, because we would need to consider the intent of the original author when the story was part of an oral tradition, the intent of those who embellished the story over the years while it existed only in the oral tradition, the intent of the writer who committed it to written text, and the intent of the translators.
This is apparently a bad habit introduced by modern text criticism.
If "modern text criticism" is an allusion to deconstructionism, then I have no part in that.

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nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 95 of 307 (349573)
09-16-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Percy
09-16-2006 8:27 AM


I don't think there's any point in trying to convince a professed Christian that there was a fall. I guess Christianity must be a much bigger tent than I thought. Even we Unitarians don't go as far as this - while we're very liberal in our Biblical interpretations, that Genesis describes a fall is beyond doubt for us.
I'm wondering whether there is a confusion here between the uncontroversial idea that Genesis describes a fall, and the rather more controversial doctrine of original sin.
Here is a quote from the wiki article on original sin, suggesting that there are many churches, some of them quite conservative, that do not accept the doctrine.
wiki writes:
Most Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement Churches, such as the Churches of Christ, Christian Churches, and other Congregational Churches of the same origin, reject the notion of original sin, believing only in the sins for which men and women are personally responsible. Adam and Eve did bring sin into the world by introducing disobedience. This spread to further generations in much the same way other ideas spread, thus ensuring an environment that will produce sin in any individual above "The Age of Accountability."
It is my impression that jar's objection is to the doctrine, which appears to have originated with Augustine, and was later expanded by Calvin.

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nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 115 of 307 (349647)
09-16-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Percy
09-16-2006 3:32 PM


Re: Perhaps, going slightly OT.
According to the Wikipedia article on original sin, some Christian groups deny original sin altogether (evangelicals not among them, however).
The restoration movement churches would usually be considered evangelical.

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nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 137 of 307 (349772)
09-17-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
09-17-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Fall From Divine Favor
A child goes from being a child to being a child molester. That is the result of a gain in knowledge is it not?
Wrong. Most people who acquire that knowledge do not become child molesters. Thus your claim of causation is mistaken. Incidently, you are off-topic.
Furthermore: selfishness, greed, perversity, anger, hatred, jealously, violence, laziness etc, etc, are things we come increasingly able to do with age.
Still off topic. However, as any parent can tell you, infants are extremely selfish, and this selfishness decreases as they mature and gain knowledge.
The fall is as plain as the nose on your face.
Now we can get back to the topic.
Those who disagree with the doctrine of "The Fall" (or "Original Sin") are not denying that sinfulness is part of human nature. Rather, they are claiming that it was always part of human nature, even before the alleged fall. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. So they were already sinful.
That there was no fall, that human nature already had a propensity for sin, is as plain as the nose on your face.

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 Message 136 by iano, posted 09-17-2006 11:11 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 09-17-2006 12:01 PM nwr has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 140 of 307 (349781)
09-17-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
09-17-2006 12:01 PM


Re: Fall From Divine Favor
Note: I am avoiding further comment on the off topic issues of child molestation and selfishness.
You will have extreme trouble pointing to how a person can be sinful BEFORE they disobey God. Is not disobeying God not the very definition of sin? So how sinful before the fact?
I welcome you to those who reject the doctrine of original sin. Glad to have you on board. For the claim of that doctrine is that a person is already sinful, before having committed any sins, merely by virtue of the sins committed by Adam and Eve in the garden.
However, I do think you misunderstood what I said in Message 137. I said that humans have a sinful nature. That is not at all the same as saying that humans are sinful. It is only the claim that there is a propensity for committing sins.

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 Message 139 by iano, posted 09-17-2006 12:01 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 09-17-2006 1:07 PM nwr has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 144 of 307 (349790)
09-17-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by iano
09-17-2006 1:07 PM


Re: Fall From Divine Favor
Not so Adam.
You are inventing that. It is nowhere to be found in the text.
I had thought you were a Calvinist believer in predestination

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 Message 141 by iano, posted 09-17-2006 1:07 PM iano has replied

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