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Author Topic:   George Bush leads us into the world of Kafka.
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 150 (350479)
09-19-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by kuresu
09-19-2006 6:17 PM


Re: A general reply
this is what I've been arguing about. Those so-called communist nations AREN'T LEFTIST. leftist ideology entails eqalitarian concepts--everybody is equal, period.
Hang on, let me make sure I'm getting this straight. Basically, whenever a nation or system that does anything that could be construed as negative aren't Leftist by your default plan, even when all their stated ideals, goals, and programs elucidate leftist idealogies, they aren't in fact apart of "the Left?"
For the record I understand what you mean, but apparently you miss the obvious that what you are saying is completely incorrect as you set yourself up in a very safe position as an afterthought.
If you have a system that favors one over the other, that system, by it's very own nation, can't be leftist. Those "communist" nations favor party members over the rest of the populace--the best example (though fictional) is 1984 and Animal Farm.
So no, it's not ironic that leftists are decrying the loss of liberties (especially if you include the classical liberals, which are to the left), because the "communist" nations aren't, and weren't, leftist. sheez
Of course they are and no amount verbal contortion is going to change that fact embedded in history. You are making it so that "Left" means "good, fair, and impartial." That's absurd. And to make the connection of how that's incorrect and biased, some have found it objectionable that certain Christians speak about "real Christians," and that their interpretation of who is a real Christian and who isn't comes directly from their ability to parcel it but not anyone else's. Does that make sense?

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by kuresu, posted 09-19-2006 6:17 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by kuresu, posted 09-19-2006 10:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 150 (350492)
09-19-2006 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jaderis
09-19-2006 6:27 PM


Re: A general reply
I suppose you think that America is completely untainted and anything that it (meaning policies carried out by its government) has done is sanctioned by God as its divine right, so therefore, it can do no wrong.
Uhh, no, I don't think that. And I'm aware that the US has engaged in certain things that tarnish its history.
Why don't you learn a little history first instead of blindly defending some very abhorrent policy.
Likewise.
Continuing US support and arming of Israel (when your family is killed by US made bombs you might be a little peeved, dontcha think?) wars against Arab states and US willingness to ignore the nuclear threat Israel poses (they've never signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty and haven't allowed inspections of the nuclear facilities since the 1960's)
The US has every right to defend and support a nation that shares similar visions of Democracy in a middle east that predominantly despises such notions. As for being bombed by US missles is the same as getting shot by Russian-made weaponry in Iraq and blaming the Russians for it. You also need to realize who is getting 'bombed.' I think you've been duped by the unending distortions propagated by Pallywood and Hezbollywood.
-US support (past and present) of authoritarian/human rights abusing regimes in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran (under the pro-US shah), Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, etc
There were human rights abuses in Iraq where the US intervened and supplanted the Hussein regime but that didn't seem to make anyone happier about the US. This is yet another case of damned if we do, damned if we don't. Whenever the US intervenes the charge almost always seem to condemn the US for sticking their nose where it doesn't belong, but then when it doesn't intervene, the charge is that America is heartless. Really, what exactly should the US do to make the Muslim nations happy?
-The Iran-Iraq war
What about the Iran-Iraq war?
-The 1991 Persian Gulf War
Uh, Iraq invaded a Muslim nation called "Kuwait" because he wanted to control it. The US signed a treaty with Kuwait years before granting the Kuwaitis protection for continuing to support us through oil. So, please explain to me how this offended the Muslim world? You know, I kind of think that not honoring our part of the agreement would make the US more suspect in regards to its offenses to Muslim nations.
The policies that say loud and clear to all in the ME that the US is only concerned about the ME because of its oil reserves and will do anything to retain access to them (see all of the above)
Oh, yes, that evil US who is only interested in the ME for oil, because France, Germany, Canada, the UK, Sweden, Norway, Japan, the Phillipines, and so on care about the ME for reasons other than oil? Please tell me when the moment a nation was allowed to secure its interests. Why do you condemn the US and implicate the US as the sole proprietor for the world's problems.
Here's the bottom line: Terrorism will not stop until Islamofascism is removed from the general population of Muslims or until the US becomes a Muslim nation. That has been cited by numerous factions in the MidEast.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Jaderis, posted 09-19-2006 6:27 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by kuresu, posted 09-19-2006 9:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 112 by Jaderis, posted 09-20-2006 1:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 114 by Chiroptera, posted 09-20-2006 10:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 150 (350521)
09-19-2006 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by nator
09-19-2006 10:33 PM


Re: A general reply
"Some sort of reason"? Sure, there's always "some sort of reason" to spy on people.
Okay, then let me extend my meaning to mean either Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause, not hunches.
Do you trust every single person who is currently or who will ever come into such power to not ever abuse it, not even once?
I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion. Maybe you can elaborate on your meaning.
We know that the government spies on political activists. We know that the government spies on civil rights activists. We know that the government spies on journalists. We know that the government spies on its political enemies.
You say that like its a bad thing. Again, the gov't doesn't just spy on people without some corroborating reason to do so. What you are doing is demonizing and basically slandering the entire intelligence and counterintelligence community. If they spy on activists its because there is credible reason to believe that they are engaged in illegal activities. Having said that, I'm certain that somewhere along the line there has been corruption on some level, but surely you have to believe that this would be few and far between.
Do you really think that nobody has, nor will ever in the future, abuse this power, knowing that they will never be held accountable by Congress or the Courts?
What a ridiculous argument. That's like saying no police officer is allowed to carry a gun because somewhere along the line someobne will use it incorrectly.
Think of the liberal politician you detest the most. Now, imagine them with the power of the Patriot Act. Still feel OK about it?
Yes, because one man doesn't make a system. there are checks and balances in place so that we don't have dictatorships in power. Its called Congress who has to approve these kinds of things.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by nator, posted 09-19-2006 10:33 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by kuresu, posted 09-19-2006 11:07 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 110 by nator, posted 09-19-2006 11:12 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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