Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?

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You can believe it on faith in your "Naturaopathic Holistic Balanced Healing for Women"- type books if you want to, of course, but such a belief is not based upon reason.

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Why do you classify it as faith and not reason? Show me that my reasoning is flawed, without adding to the scenerios.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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You ignore the strong evidence that would strongly suggest that there is no way in hell that castor oil packs are able to do what you are using them for, and believe that they are working anyway.

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What is that strong evidence that I'm ignoring? (This goes in the other thread, which I haven't forgotten, but I'm trying to find the evidence to put in front of you, but it takes time to reread and it's not at the top of my priority list.)

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You believe something, despite there being essentially no rational, evidence-based reason to do so.

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Which something is that? Show me that my reasoning is wrong on something specific. (not the packs, they are the other thread.)

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Antibiotics are often necessary for the treatment of serious infections, such as pneumonia bacteraemia or meningitis. They can also be used to manage infection in people with cystic fibrosis or compromised immune systems. There is also prophylactic use to avoid infection, such as following an operation or lab exposure to a pathogen. What alternatives could be used in these circumstances?

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The biggest point in this thread is that I should be allowed to use MDs when necessary and NDs when necessary. Each has their place.The MD deals with that which can't be fixed naturally.The ND deals with that which can be fixed naturally.Sometimes it is a combination of the two. The MD does the surgery or diagnosis necessary and the ND helps the person with necessary nutrition and therapies that help return the body back to health.I shouldn't be stuck with one or the other and choosing to heal naturally doesn't mean I've lost all reason.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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he issue is that the ND's so-called "natural" treatments have not been tested for effectiveness or safety to anything like the same extent as the methods of conventional medicine. If they have been tested at all.

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What leads you to believe they haven't been tested? Vitamin E
Dr. Rath, scientific publicationsNow I can't speak for "everything", I don't know everything that's out there, but there are many natural methods that have been clinically tested.Even conventional medicine doesn't always work or work the same for every person. We've wasted money on conventional blood pressure medicine that didn't work.Misusing conventional medicine can lead to deaths just as misusing natural methods can.I have to do research on the natural just like the conventional.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The lack of any serious testing for your castor oil packs and the harmful effects of ephedra produced here look like good reasons. And Vitamin E is as much or more a part of conventional medicine.

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But there isn't a lack of serious testing. I guess it depends on what you call serious.William A McGarey, M.D. tested castor oil packs for 30 years in his practice. "The Oil That Heals, A Physician's Successes With CAstor Oil Treatments, by William A. McGarey, M.D." Because Ephedra was misused doesn't negate it's correct medicinal use. Anabolic Steroids have therapeutic uses and is safe for human use, but causes problems when abused. This is FDA approved also and I assume went through the serious testing you mention.As I've said before, I do advocate that there be a standard for licensing NDs to make sure they are trained in Chinese Herbal Medicine and other herbal remedies.We are going through a change in the way we deal with healing and it takes time to get all the ducks in a row, just like it took time for allopathy to get to where it is today.As with any system there are people who take advantage of loop holes to make money. Nothing new there. As those holes are found they are dealt with.

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So can using "natural" medicine "correctly" instead of conventional medicine.

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So can using conventional medicine correctly instead of natural medicine.Medicine is not an exact science. A doctor can follow all the right procedures and still lose the patient. We are not identical machines. There are many variables.We need to be able to look at both sides of an ailment. A combination of the two can be beneficial.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Conventional medicine for all it's flaws is far more rigourously tested and far less prone to quackery than any "alternative" medicine.

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Even in its infancy?Alternative medicine is trying to find a legitmate foothold. All of it is not quackery.So McGarey doesn't have a good explanation as to why castor oil packs worked on his patients. One test shows it isn't wasted from the body the same as when taken internally. Move on to the next test. In Message 160 I gave the quotes on another test concerning lymphocyte counts. There was a difference in the groups, so the pack is making an impact on the body.In 30 years of observation, he has used the packs for various illnesses and injuries over and over again. The packs worked. He is a medical doctor fully aware of conventional methods. He supposedly used both in his practice. Conventional being the primary it seems. He's written books and articles. I think there has been ample time for someone to prove him wrong. Have you found anything that has been done to prove his observations wrong?So if it works and heals toenail fungus, it is safer than the oral medicine.Castor oil has been around a very long time. I haven't found anything that says external use is unsafe, have you?Just because we don't understand the healing properties, doesn't mean it doesn't work. It may be a while before we figure it out. Chicken soup still holds mystery. Many natural remedies have already had a very long successful run of being used by people, but we need practioners who understand their proper use and that will take time.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Come on, the hallmarks of quackery are all over it. Or is that information you DON'T want?

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Again, where's the risk factor? Castor oil is inexpensive. It isn't worth the expense to test at the level you're wanting.If I use it on a fungal toenail and it works, it is safer and cheaper than the oral medication.Again, I don't care to throw the baby out with the bath water. So Cayce was a bit odd. They documented some good results. A.R.E. has the results not me.Just because I think a few of their ideas may work and give them a try, doesn't mean I buy into all they are presenting. I do my own testing. If it works, then it works.This is not an all or nothing deal. I can glean little pieces here and there that benefit my health. It doesn't mean I've lost all reason because one of their ideas may have some merit.When an MD doesn't have a solution, I have to find other information to figure out the problem.I'm not a company, I'm a consumer. I can only do what is best for me. I can't wait for someone to decide to test something as simple as castor oil or chicken soup to suit the scientific or academic world. Home remedies have been around a long time and some still work.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

If you want to look at the medical plausibility of it, then go to the castor oil thread and explain to me why it is preposterous.Unfortunately I made my comments that I meant to put in that thread over here earlier to PaulK I think.I would like to look at the feasibility of some of the internal claims concerning the cator oil packs, but not if all you're going to do is say it is ridiculous. That doesn't show me anything.So if you really want to look at it, then go to that thread and we can work through it there.
(If I can get in anyway. )

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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So what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if what they are claiming is true. We should just beleive it anyway. Did you want information, o did you want assuracnes that are probably false?

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No that's not what I'm saying. My first readings about castor oil packs has nothing to do with that site. So my actions are not based on them.

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Look, I'm giving you real information

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What real information have you given me?If you really want to look at the validity of the internal claims concerning the castor oil packs, then go to the castor oil thread and explain why you don't feel a specific claim is possible.I would like to discuss the possibilities of the castor oil packs, but just telling me a site is quackery doesn't amount to real information.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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And about the FDA? It's been mentioned at least a dozen times in this thread, and by me in several direct replies to you, that the law that was passed that classifies all herbal drugs as "nutritional supplements" was lobbied heavily for in Washington by the manufacturers and retailers of these herbal drugs so they could continue to avoid having to test them for safety and efficacy.

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And the facts concerning your reason for the law is located where?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Your response to my request for more substantial support concerning testing avoidance by herbal manufacturers is an excerpt from an article by Stephen Barrett, M.D. of Quackwatch.

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The entire article at Quackwatch is referenced, and most of the footnotes are hotlinks that take you to more specific information.

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Reference #3 is his own book. "The Vitamin Pushers: How the Health Food Industry Is Selling America a Bill of Goods"I don't see how this supports that herbal manufacturers want to avoid proving their products are safe and effective.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I understand what he is saying, but what supports that his statement is true, besides his own book?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The question is what supports that Dr. Stephen Barrett's statements are true or accurate?The same question goes for the other link you provided. What supports that the statements by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber are accurate?

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There is nothing stopping the manufacturers of herbal drugs from following FDA guidelines right now.

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Don't you want them to follow FDA guidelines? AER Bill PassesH.R. 6168 Dietary Supplement and Nonprescription Drug Consumer Protection Act (Introduced in House)Reporting Requirement the same as for OTC drugs

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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OK, so what is it that you have a problem with?
What parts do you doubt are true?

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The problem is that you present QuackWatch as "gospel" (parden the expression) and you really have nothing that supports that his statements are true. Linus Pauling, a Nobel Prize winner. Pauling is considered: Pauling became an advocate for increased vitamin C and nutrient consumption and publish his concepts and research on vitamin C and orthomolecular medicine. His ideas were considered unorthodox by conventional medicine.Now Barrett (QuackWatch) considers Paulings concepts to be questionable.There have been accusations of bias and lack of objectivity on the part of Dr. Barrett.You can find MD/scientists that support your view with complaints against mine and I can find MD/scientists that support my view with complaints against yours. They are out to support/protect their interests.So what supports that your MD is more correct than my MD other than he supports your position?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Don't derail, we're still talking about "testing avoidance". See Message 189

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This doesn't need to be a game of 'he said, she said' all you need to do is look and see what the actual scientific research shows, it may show that the question is still an open one or it may not.

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In Message 184 I asked for support concerning schrafs repeated statement. The only support shown so far is Barrett referencing his own book.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz