egotheistic pantheism revealed...

Pantheism is all over the place. It is whatever you want it to be. It is not monolithic. The popular strain in the West (new age) doesn't necesarily say that all religions are right, but that all of them will lead to where the pantheists are; To the true enlightened state that all is God, including themselves from a certain point of view.Like you, I am not an expert in all of it's different angle's. I'm still learning myself. My comments are directed toward the monistic pantheists such as the new agers common here in the West. Precisely!So exactly how are they non-exclusive? If they do not exclude other religions when they are confronted by that information, they must accept it even if it is exclusive.It's just a logical nightmare. Either it is exclusive, or it is not. It cannot be both. Define for me what a strawman argument is please... Well that's for sure... Most of them don't like to be systematized or defined. If they were, they couldn't bend with the breeze. So they prefer to keep the terms vague so as not to be pinned by the heavy hand of logic. Most of it is clouded in vague and ambiguous generalities, kind of like this description. All is God, 'Monism'! That is the belief that all of reality good and evil is one ultimate reality. And in a sense it is at the present time. They believe it will evolve into a balance between the two in some manner or another. It is one absolute reality of constant change.Christianity takes a strikingly different stance... That one day the two will be seperated. And God who is only what is good and true will cast evil into the abyss forever. It is a 'Dualist' position. Good and evil are not one but in irreconcilable conflict for the title of God, both being uniquely absolute in their nature.

Well, that is the idea... If you believe good and evil are both 'uniquely absolute' and in 'conflict for the title of God,' you are indeed a dualist. But you are not a Christian.Christians are monotheists. They do not see God as a contestant for the job of God. They believe God is God already. He is in charge of everything that happens. Christians believe God has been the incumbent for a long time and has never had any serious competition for the job.Christians thus believe in one absolute power, not two. They do not regard God/Good and Satan/Evil as equal and opposite forces throwing elbows in a tug-of-war contest for control of the universe. (Many aspects of your picture would please a Gnostic, however.)On the basis of your dualistic creed, with both sides equal, you have no grounds other than favoritism to declare that one side or the other will 'win.' Declaring a winner between the two sides would invalidate your whole dualistic premise. Without evil there is no good and vice versa. The concepts are defined by each other, like wet and dry or hot and cold. Eliminate one side of each pair and you have eliminated the pair.Either you are not a true dualist, or you are not a true Christian.But I have good news. Your habit of thinking in extreme dichotomies has led you to oversimplify the range of your choices. You are not really stuck with a choice between pantheism on the one hand and dualism on the other, with atheism looming as the potential crasher of your party. Other possibilities exist.Consider panentheism.Panentheism enjoys a long and respected tradition in both Judaism and Christianity. Isaac Luria, Thomas Aquinas, Meister Eckhart... good company.A few places to explore:Page not found – The Wild Things of God
http://websyte.com/alan/pan.htm
Panentheism - Wikipedia__

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Archer:Oh I see... so that is the truth. Thank you... I've been looking for it all my life.The whole point of this thread is that truth is exclusive. You've doen nothing but confirm the premise. And that is what we should expect, because any other premise will do the same thing. It is inevitable.Archer:Infinite possiblities exist to be exact. But only one of them is correct. There is no one man among us who is totally correct. That is what made Jesus' statements so profound because He is the only one with the audacity to speak such things as well as the ability to live them consistently. He didn't just speak the truth, He embodied it without failure.Maybe you don't believe that. And maybe your right! But if your right, then I am wrong and more importantly, Christ was wrong.1 John 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.Archer:I did not say they were equal. As you said, I am a Christian; a monotheist. I said they are both absolute. But not in the way you think I meant. I think your concept of absolutes is flawed. Please allow me to explain why...One absolutely cannot stand because it is a lie and destroys itself. The other has no limit to it's expression because it is true and logical. It's richness has no bounds. It is boundless because it operates only by one law. The law of love. The law of harmony. The law of consistency. The law of non-contradiction.Mark 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.Luke 21:15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.Psalm 119:96 To all perfection I see a limit; but your commands are boundless.Revelation 2:16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.Archer:Good and evil are not defined by each other's presence as the gnostic believes.As I said to iceage: Archer, the problem is not that I think in extreme dichotomies. The problem is that in our sin, we try to cloud the issues and bring together concepts that are in opposition to each other. We try in vain to make logical that which is ilogical in order to justify our lifestyles of choice.But God has a warning for us...Psalm 7:12 If he does not relent, he will sharpen his sword; he will bend and string his bow. 13 He has prepared his deadly weapons; he makes ready his flaming arrows. 14 He who is pregnant with evil and conceives trouble gives birth to disillusionment. 15 He who digs a hole and scoops it out falls into the pit he has made. 16 The trouble he causes recoils on himself; his violence comes down on his own head.Ephesians 6:14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.Where are your arrows Archer?Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.Archer, if the time ever comes, be sure you do not bow to me. For I am a man like you who was deafeted by his Lord. Such a blessed defeat saved me from myself.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

Many Christians seem to think good and evil are separate, but of course the Bible tells us that both good and evil are created by GOD and by GOD's will alone.Isaiah 45: But then they also seem to forget that other parts of the Bible declare that there are many Gods.Psalm 95:

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You talk of evil as if it is a real thing rather than just a lable. 'Evil' is a discriptive lable in the same way that 'Red' is a discriptive lable.

No charge. Just don't bow to me. Panentheism, as you can see from the material I shared, bears a key resemblance to trinitarianism and the Anselmic doctrine of satisfaction. Like those great ideas, it elucidates texts and beliefs intrinsic to Christian beliefs at the outset. Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant.One could say mainstream Christianity is panentheistic--just as one says it is monotheistic.As there are probably more panentheists in the world than pantheists, it would be good if you could address this subject a bit. What did you think of the internet material I showed you?Just so everyone knows:

pantheism = 'All Things are God'
panentheism = 'All Things are in God'

___Edited by Archer Opterix, : title.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

I thought I had better mention something important.I want everyone who is a pantheist to know that I am not labling or condemning you wiht this perspective. Our beliefs are very personal in the privatized culture. Not many wish to hang them out on their sleeve and invite conflict. That is understandable, but we must test ourselves to see if we are believing something trustworthy, lest we be deceived.Now, I don't suppose very many of you are foolish enough to allow yourselves to be manipulated by the whim of others. But sometimes, in such a defensive position we often end up being our own worst deceiver. We need community to test our ideas with excruciating inspection.1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.------------------------------------------------------- I need to make an important point.In another thread, Anglagard made a comment that made me realize he felt I was misrepresenting his religion. It reminded me that we tend to buy this notion that our beliefs are suited to serve us. But is that true?I mean if they really are true, then our beliefs, say Jesus Christ for example, really would be our servant.Matthew 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant.But that is not the kind of thing we mean when we say that our philosophy suits us. Not in the modern sense.I think G.K. Chesterton said it best: (Introduction to THE BOOK OF JOB "Man is most comforted by paradoxes." by G.K. Chesterton)We simply must be willing to test ourselves, by openly declaring our beliefs and allowing them to be challenged.If our leader tells us to keep hidden in our own coccoon, then he is hiding something. If that leader is ourself, then we are all the more in danger of yeilding to temptation.A confident and honest leader would put it to the test to see what is burned up in the fire. What remains will be pure gold.Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

jarWhy didn't Gid say, 'I create the light, and create darkness'? 'I create peace, and create evil.'You're kidding yourself.The Lord is (forms) the light, and He is (makes) peace... For God is love, and love is peace.1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.jarThere's our 'monotheism'... King of Kings and Lord of lords.The ideas (gods / spirit of the age, et al) that are currently your lord are vaccuous.There is only one Lord.

So you say. But parts of the Bible say otherwise.Just more of the obvious contradictions in the Bible.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I have already stated somewhere (perhaps another thread) that pantheism is like the negative image of the Christian photograph or vice versa.2 Corinthians 11:10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.Perhpas Panentheism is true Archer... but if so, Christ is a liar. He did not speak such doubletalk.John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Thank you jar, for proving once again that you believe in the Law of non-contradiction.Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

The passage you quote is itself panentheistic.Maybe you should find out what the idea is before trying to bash it.Right now you're faking it so badly that I suspect this is your first experience of the idea. You clearly haven't read yet any of the material I showed you. Your tone is peevish and resentful, and you are using Scripture cut-and-pastes to hide from the discussion rather than further it.It might be time to take a break. Get some air. Brew some tea. Doubletalk like Scottnessian Dualism? With its bookend gods, Good and Evil, duking it out every day to see who will get the top job once the dust clears?No, I guess he didn't.But then, Jesus never argued with a Psalm, either.____

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Larni:You know... Ravi Zacharius tells the story of being on an airplane after leaving a major asian city that he did not name. He happened to be sitting next to a Dutch woman, and after some pleasantries discovered that she was also a Christian.He asked her what she had been doing in that country and she told him she was involved in rescuing children from some horrible conditions that absoultely debased them.She said that on this trip she saw the worst thing she had ever seen. She said there is a place in the city we just left called 'Snake Alley'. It is a place where the men come after work and are given a concoction of liquor and snakes blood. It ravages the mind. Then thay are treated to their hearts desire even though they make their request before consuming the beverage.She said, 'Mr Zacharius, I rescued an 18 month old baby girl from the hands of a man who was sexually devestating her.'And in relating the story to the concept of evil, Ravi asked: ( Oops, something lost )Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Jesus is the psalms.John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.If you want to evade the point with panentheism go ahead. But you're going to have a hard time showing that it is not exclusive.Let's assume that panentheism is true... 'all is in God'.Then what... my brother... are you disagreeing with??? Yourself?Do you exist?Or are you 'a living illusion'?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Can you back this up with a references. I dunno you may be right I have not looked. However, I sense that you may be busy building a staw man again.Staw man Fallacy: Assuming and misrepresenting or overstating an opponent's position so that you can easy dismantle it and refute. As is usually the case the world does not not boil down to a set of "either this", "or that" dichotomy.If a religious philosophy states that there are other paths to God they are considered nonexclusivist. A nonexclusivist religion is not required to be inclusive of *all* other religions. There are a number of religions that do not claim a exclusive hold on spiritual truth. This is in conflict with several OT quotations - you do know that right?I think your religious ideological plumbing has a few leaks - is it time to call a plumber.