egotheistic pantheism revealed...

In the thread I met God, Iceage writes: All philosophies and religions are exclusive... including egotheistic pantheism.The cosmic vaccume cleaner of popular [new age pantheism] just opposes and exalts itself over everything else and claims that they (the knowing) are one with the divine. They are God. They believe we are evolving into the self aware universe, and that is everything, and that is God.If you are unfamilliar with this stripe of pantheism, then watch the movie, 'What the Bleep do we Know'. J. Z. Knight, or Ramtha (as she calls herself, and who channels the Hindu God Ram) will flat out tell you, 'You are God'.That particular movie is revealing and far more honest than the typical 'self-described' new ager, who is really only flirting with the concept of panthesim. They posit the idea that we create our own reality, and that the problem with the world is that we need to shift from the Christian paradigm, to the 'true' paradigm.And they especially exclude the religions that are openly exclusive. They mock and impune the primitive believers of those narrow systems as evil (by implication). But to imply that something is evil is to exclude it from being true! For if anything is the heart of evil it is falsehood.But the egotheistic pantheist cannot take to being examined very carefully because being God, he or she does not like to be challenged. God owns Himself / Herself. He is His own. If you challenge them, they will collectively attack your backside for speaking with disrespect to the Kings and Queens of the universe. Like they did to Jesus, they will slap you for your arrogance.1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your ownThat is why I reject 'new age' pantheism without excuse. Because it is a fraud. An imposter that sets itself up, as the very thing it claims not to be. It opposes itself. It is a contradiction and a falsehood; a deception. It is the most exclusive of all because it calls itself the truth! It is a copy of Christianity even to the extent of each member being part of the body. Some of it is so close to Christianity that it is like the negative of a photograph.Well, it is either the truth or the antitruth; Christ or antichrist. One thing is certain... as sure as there is a hell, there is no middle ground. One openly reveals it's true nature (that of exclusivity) and the other will avoid admitting that at the expense of reason itself.Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.But it will sell. Man (as oppposed to God) does it sell in this dark time. Because the philosophy promises that you can have your physical cake and eat your spiritual fruitcake too. You can indulge like the carnal God that they accuse the God of the Bible of being.2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.Job 34:33 Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent? You must decide, not I; so tell me what you know.Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets (love the truth and tell it). 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.Question for this thread: Would any egotheistic pantheist like to challenge this interpretation and exclude it from being true? or anyone else for that matter?Bible study?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

What did you have in mind?

??? To crosswalk.com?No scripture = no evidence.

Asgara, I'd be lying if I said you didn't scare me just a little...But for better or worse, thank you.

That's not an argument Iceage, it's an accusation. Please enlighten me as to why, and I'll consider revisions.

Thanks Iceage, I can understand why you think the way you do. Let me explain why I believe it is false. Please indulge me...Iceage:Of course not, because I would remind them that if there is more than one way to God, then that excludes the belief that there is only one way to God.They have escaped nothing!Iceage:Rejection is exclusion. If you say you are right and I am wrong, but that I have the right to be wrong and will still go to heaven, then you exclude the opposite that I am right, and there is only one way to heaven. Any religion can claim exclusivity. All of them do philosophically. It is not even something that can be challenged. The logic is flawless, because logic is flawless.The thing is, not all religions can be exclusivly true. Ravi Zacharius put's it this way: (Ravi Zacharius/ Lecture/ Understanding the Spirit of the Age)It's the basis of logic. The law of non-contradiction. That two contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time unless they are qualified in some way. As soon as you challenge it, you prove it, because if you challenge it, you must infer that it is not correct.1+1 only equals 2. Not 3 or 7 or 19. (not a solid analogy for the wise, but point made).The worst part is this... (privatization of faith) People who have been led to believe that there are many ways to God, think that in the name of peace they should let others believe what they want. But if others are wrong they need to know... because they are causing enormous problems and conflict in their wrongheadedness.The truth (reality) whateverit is must be proclaimed form the rooftops. It is the good news. It is the missing equation in our thinking that would solve our condition. Assuming we want to give up our condition that is... Assuming we don't choose our sins instead.Iceage:With all due respect, don't hold your breath...Iceage:This is why I said I can understand why you think that. Because you are partially correct. But there is another dimension to consider.Evil is a reality in this dualist and temporal reality of good and evil. But it is not reality in the eternal sense. Evil is really only incoherent potential. It is limitless chaos. But it is truely evil. It's not as though it's normal or just a concept. Not to life. Evil is antithetical to life. Evil is death, confusion and noncoherent dispertion of order (life).[/b]But evil is never true.[/b] There is a difference between something being real vs.true. Lies are a reality, but they are never true. And lies (contradictions) start in the spiritual dimension, and manifest themselves into the physical reality.Iceage:I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. Well said. But what is life? It is order and cohesion to such an exquisite extreme, that consciousness is created; Spiritual first (coherence / truth) manifest into the physical. Life is Truth!So the opponent to life is disorder; Spiritual first (incoherence / lies) manifset into the physical. Lies are death!John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.And he said in John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.That last quote was not directed at you btw, Iceage. It is just for illustrating the exquisite logic of Christ. I've always got the impression you were and honest skeptic. Very skeptical perhaps... but not all false.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

Actually, it doesn't matter... The point is, that whatever it is, it is exclusive.The truth by defintion is exclusive. When we make an affirmation, we are excluding it's opposite.It doesn't even have to be considered a spiritual religion. Many humanists think all of the conflict in the world is the falt of religion. They exclude all of them. But when you look deeper at such extremes of naturalism, you find the Humean position which turns out to be a metaphysical statement, decrying the ability for a metaphysical statement to be true.It takes a spirit to deny a spirit.What is interesting, is that some forms of pantheism are very simmilar to Christianity. That is why they make so much sense to people. Because it is almost the whole (holy) truth. And they don't have to repent of their sins.It was Ravi who said, 'They get to have their spiritual cake and eat their physical fulfilment too'. But he said the spurious glitter of pantheism is beggining to fade, and we are called at this difficult time, to tell them the truth. That they are forgiven and loved so much by a God who knows and endured the agony of living in this cruel world.John 4:7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." 11 "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" 13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." 15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water." 16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back." 17 "I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true." 19 "Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." 21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Pantheism is all over the place. It is whatever you want it to be. It is not monolithic. The popular strain in the West (new age) doesn't necesarily say that all religions are right, but that all of them will lead to where the pantheists are; To the true enlightened state that all is God, including themselves from a certain point of view.Like you, I am not an expert in all of it's different angle's. I'm still learning myself. My comments are directed toward the monistic pantheists such as the new agers common here in the West. Precisely!So exactly how are they non-exclusive? If they do not exclude other religions when they are confronted by that information, they must accept it even if it is exclusive.It's just a logical nightmare. Either it is exclusive, or it is not. It cannot be both. Define for me what a strawman argument is please... Well that's for sure... Most of them don't like to be systematized or defined. If they were, they couldn't bend with the breeze. So they prefer to keep the terms vague so as not to be pinned by the heavy hand of logic. Most of it is clouded in vague and ambiguous generalities, kind of like this description. All is God, 'Monism'! That is the belief that all of reality good and evil is one ultimate reality. And in a sense it is at the present time. They believe it will evolve into a balance between the two in some manner or another. It is one absolute reality of constant change.Christianity takes a strikingly different stance... That one day the two will be seperated. And God who is only what is good and true will cast evil into the abyss forever. It is a 'Dualist' position. Good and evil are not one but in irreconcilable conflict for the title of God, both being uniquely absolute in their nature.

Archer:Oh I see... so that is the truth. Thank you... I've been looking for it all my life.The whole point of this thread is that truth is exclusive. You've doen nothing but confirm the premise. And that is what we should expect, because any other premise will do the same thing. It is inevitable.Archer:Infinite possiblities exist to be exact. But only one of them is correct. There is no one man among us who is totally correct. That is what made Jesus' statements so profound because He is the only one with the audacity to speak such things as well as the ability to live them consistently. He didn't just speak the truth, He embodied it without failure.Maybe you don't believe that. And maybe your right! But if your right, then I am wrong and more importantly, Christ was wrong.1 John 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.Archer:I did not say they were equal. As you said, I am a Christian; a monotheist. I said they are both absolute. But not in the way you think I meant. I think your concept of absolutes is flawed. Please allow me to explain why...One absolutely cannot stand because it is a lie and destroys itself. The other has no limit to it's expression because it is true and logical. It's richness has no bounds. It is boundless because it operates only by one law. The law of love. The law of harmony. The law of consistency. The law of non-contradiction.Mark 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.Luke 21:15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.Psalm 119:96 To all perfection I see a limit; but your commands are boundless.Revelation 2:16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.Archer:Good and evil are not defined by each other's presence as the gnostic believes.As I said to iceage: Archer, the problem is not that I think in extreme dichotomies. The problem is that in our sin, we try to cloud the issues and bring together concepts that are in opposition to each other. We try in vain to make logical that which is ilogical in order to justify our lifestyles of choice.But God has a warning for us...Psalm 7:12 If he does not relent, he will sharpen his sword; he will bend and string his bow. 13 He has prepared his deadly weapons; he makes ready his flaming arrows. 14 He who is pregnant with evil and conceives trouble gives birth to disillusionment. 15 He who digs a hole and scoops it out falls into the pit he has made. 16 The trouble he causes recoils on himself; his violence comes down on his own head.Ephesians 6:14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.Where are your arrows Archer?Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.Archer, if the time ever comes, be sure you do not bow to me. For I am a man like you who was deafeted by his Lord. Such a blessed defeat saved me from myself.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

I thought I had better mention something important.I want everyone who is a pantheist to know that I am not labling or condemning you wiht this perspective. Our beliefs are very personal in the privatized culture. Not many wish to hang them out on their sleeve and invite conflict. That is understandable, but we must test ourselves to see if we are believing something trustworthy, lest we be deceived.Now, I don't suppose very many of you are foolish enough to allow yourselves to be manipulated by the whim of others. But sometimes, in such a defensive position we often end up being our own worst deceiver. We need community to test our ideas with excruciating inspection.1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.------------------------------------------------------- I need to make an important point.In another thread, Anglagard made a comment that made me realize he felt I was misrepresenting his religion. It reminded me that we tend to buy this notion that our beliefs are suited to serve us. But is that true?I mean if they really are true, then our beliefs, say Jesus Christ for example, really would be our servant.Matthew 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant.But that is not the kind of thing we mean when we say that our philosophy suits us. Not in the modern sense.I think G.K. Chesterton said it best: (Introduction to THE BOOK OF JOB "Man is most comforted by paradoxes." by G.K. Chesterton)We simply must be willing to test ourselves, by openly declaring our beliefs and allowing them to be challenged.If our leader tells us to keep hidden in our own coccoon, then he is hiding something. If that leader is ourself, then we are all the more in danger of yeilding to temptation.A confident and honest leader would put it to the test to see what is burned up in the fire. What remains will be pure gold.Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

jarWhy didn't Gid say, 'I create the light, and create darkness'? 'I create peace, and create evil.'You're kidding yourself.The Lord is (forms) the light, and He is (makes) peace... For God is love, and love is peace.1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.jarThere's our 'monotheism'... King of Kings and Lord of lords.The ideas (gods / spirit of the age, et al) that are currently your lord are vaccuous.There is only one Lord.

I have already stated somewhere (perhaps another thread) that pantheism is like the negative image of the Christian photograph or vice versa.2 Corinthians 11:10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.Perhpas Panentheism is true Archer... but if so, Christ is a liar. He did not speak such doubletalk.John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Thank you jar, for proving once again that you believe in the Law of non-contradiction.Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

Larni:You know... Ravi Zacharius tells the story of being on an airplane after leaving a major asian city that he did not name. He happened to be sitting next to a Dutch woman, and after some pleasantries discovered that she was also a Christian.He asked her what she had been doing in that country and she told him she was involved in rescuing children from some horrible conditions that absoultely debased them.She said that on this trip she saw the worst thing she had ever seen. She said there is a place in the city we just left called 'Snake Alley'. It is a place where the men come after work and are given a concoction of liquor and snakes blood. It ravages the mind. Then thay are treated to their hearts desire even though they make their request before consuming the beverage.She said, 'Mr Zacharius, I rescued an 18 month old baby girl from the hands of a man who was sexually devestating her.'And in relating the story to the concept of evil, Ravi asked: ( Oops, something lost )Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Jesus is the psalms.John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.If you want to evade the point with panentheism go ahead. But you're going to have a hard time showing that it is not exclusive.Let's assume that panentheism is true... 'all is in God'.Then what... my brother... are you disagreeing with??? Yourself?Do you exist?Or are you 'a living illusion'?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.