Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   egotheistic pantheism revealed...
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 74 of 308 (377036)
01-14-2007 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by anastasia
01-14-2007 8:36 PM


Re: on Maps
Reality may exclude any other reality...but are you saying all religions exclude reality?
I am not saying they necessarily exclude reality. They implicitely claim to be reality.
If they did not presume to be true, then no-one would belive them.
The devil masquerades as an angel of light. he doesn't come to us as a devil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 8:36 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 9:19 PM Rob has replied
 Message 79 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 9:26 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 75 of 308 (377038)
01-14-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by anastasia
01-14-2007 8:58 PM


Re: What is this Thread About?
But if Christianity is God's standard, how could it be reality and yet subject to moderation?
That's the point they can't. I was being sarcastic. My apologies...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 8:58 PM anastasia has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 77 of 308 (377041)
01-14-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by iceage
01-14-2007 9:15 PM


Re: Pantheist here
scottness writes:
The popular strain in the West (new age) doesn't necessarily say that all religions are right, but that all of them will lead to where the pantheists are
You're really coming unplugged over this...
I have heard it said to my face on at least 6 occasions from pantheists. One of them was from India and lives near me. The others are friends whom I grew up with that live certain lifestyles.
Modulus helped out with the distinction in an earlier post. Go find it and get a grip.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 9:15 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 9:31 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 78 of 308 (377042)
01-14-2007 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
01-14-2007 9:19 PM


Re: on Maps
Only the fool confuses religion with reality.
You would know...
...the only distinction is the law of non-ontradiction that you find so shallow and inane and base and irrelevant and uneventful and the like.
I really have to try harder than any man should to love you jar...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 9:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 9:35 PM Rob has replied
 Message 87 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 9:45 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 80 of 308 (377044)
01-14-2007 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by anastasia
01-14-2007 9:08 PM


Re: on Maps
Please dissemble, or tell me my brain is fried?
No, this takes all of me already. The onslaught is all that I can bear. Go back and read. Seriously, this is getting crazy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 9:08 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 9:35 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 83 of 308 (377047)
01-14-2007 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by anastasia
01-14-2007 9:26 PM


Re: on Maps
scottness writes:
Scottness:
They implicitely claim to be reality.
Anastasia:
And this includes your religion, yes?
So you are left with proving how you know YOUR religion is reality. The law of non-contradiction is beside the point. If you prove they are all wrong, or all right, or mutually exclusive, or whatever, you can't prove which is reality.
That is why it is so hard to see Anastasia. Follow me...
All religions imply that they are true. But if one understands that and comes right out and says it, then it understands itself. it hides nothing and is not attempting to manipulate.
But if another claims 'implicitely' to be true, but avoids or tries to hide that, so as to appear to be maleable in moral terms, then we can recognize it as a deception.
It must be consistent! No contradictions allowed. That is the best test of truth!
Capish?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 9:26 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 9:44 PM Rob has replied
 Message 142 by Jaderis, posted 01-15-2007 3:31 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 85 of 308 (377050)
01-14-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by anastasia
01-14-2007 9:35 PM


Re: on Maps
Do you include, or exclude, and if so why, and whom?
Of course, I am a Buddhist!
Are you helping?
My brain is fried too so don't feel bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 9:35 PM anastasia has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 88 of 308 (377054)
01-14-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
01-14-2007 9:35 PM


Re: on Maps
Well whatever jar... When I hear you talk about the map, it makes me think you are referencing Lewis with bad understanding. Theology is the map, reality is knowing God personally. And the latter is what the good news of the gosple is all about. That's why it's GOOD NEWS!
Otherwise, what would distinguish it from any other claim to fame?
That has been lost in our sub-churches over and over again in history. Today is no exception! It devolves bakc into a religion like yours.
Here is Lewis to make sense of the whole map thing:
In a way I quite understand why some people are put off by Theology. I remember once when I had been giving a talk to the R.A.F., an old, hard-bitten officer got up and said, `I've no use for all that stuff. But, mind you, I'm a religious man too. I know there's a God. I've felt Him out alone in the desert at night: the tremendous mystery. And that's just why I don't believe all your neat little dogmas and formulas about Him. To anyone who's met the real thing they all seem so petty and pedantic and unreal !'
Now in a sense I quite agreed with that man. I think he had probably had a real experience of God in the desert. And when he turned from that experience to the Christian creeds, I think he really was turning from something real to something less real. In the same way, if a man has once looked at the Atlantic from the beach, and then goes and looks at a map of the Atlantic, he also will be turning from something real to something less real: turning from real waves to a bit of coloured paper. But here comes the point. The map is admittedly only coloured paper, but there are two things you have to remember about it. In the first place, it is based on what hundreds and thousands of people have found out by sailing the real Atlantic. In that way it has behind it masses of experience just as real as the one you could have from the beach; only, while yours would be a single glimpse, the map fits all those different experiences together. In the second place, if you want to go anywhere, the map is absolutely necessary. As long as you are content with walks on the beach, your own glimpses are far more fun than looking at a map. But the map is going to be more use than walks on the beach if you want to get to America.
Now, Theology is like the map. Merely learning and thinking about the Christian doctrines, if you stop there, is less real and less exciting than the sort of thing my friend got in the desert. Doctrines are not God: they are only a kind of map. But that map is based on the experience of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God-experiences compared with which any thrills or pious feelings you and I are likely to get on our own are very elementary and very confused. And secondly, if you want to get any further, you must use the map. You see, what happened to that man in the desert may have been real, and was certainly exciting, but nothing comes of it. It leads nowhere. There is nothing to do about it. In fact, that is just why a vague religion-all about feeling God in nature, and so on-is so attractive. It is all thrills and no work; like watching the waves from the beach. But you will not get to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way, and you will not get eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or music. Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea. Nor will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map.
In other words, Theology is practical: especially now. In the old days, when there was less education and discussion, perhaps it was possible to get on with a very few simple ideas about God. But it is not so now. Everyone reads, everyone hears things discussed. Consequently, if you do not listen to Theology, that will not mean that you have no ideas about God. It will mean that you have a lot of wrong ones - bad, muddled, out-of-date ideas. For a great many of the ideas about God which are trotted out as novelties to-day are simply the ones which real Theologians tried centuries ago and rejected. To believe in the popular religion of modern England is retrogression - like believing the earth is flat.
(C.S. Lewis/ Mere Christianity / book iv/ chapter 23 segment... Making and Begetting)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 9:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 10:01 PM Rob has replied
 Message 93 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 10:02 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 89 of 308 (377055)
01-14-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by anastasia
01-14-2007 9:44 PM


Re: on Maps
How does one religion openly declaring itself to be true MAKE it true?
It doesn't... It just makes it consistent. A lack of consistency in that respect would tell us that it is false without having to study it all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 9:44 PM anastasia has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 90 of 308 (377056)
01-14-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by iceage
01-14-2007 9:45 PM


Re: on Maps
In another thread you mentioned one of your weakness was wasting time "throwing pearls before swine".
Which is why I have learned and am now ignoring your rants...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 9:45 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 9:53 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 94 of 308 (377065)
01-14-2007 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
01-14-2007 10:01 PM


Re: Those who actually have a point can make it using their own words.
Too funny. What is theology if not religions? What is Christianity other than a religion?
Not true...
Theology starts with God. Religion starts with man. Christianity is not about religion. it is about encountering the Living God. That is what Jesus taught. He opposed the religious elitists like yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 10:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 11:46 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 95 of 308 (377066)
01-14-2007 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by anastasia
01-14-2007 10:02 PM


Re: on Maps
If religions/theologies are maps, will they all get us to the same place even if the directions are wrong?
Theology starts with God, religion starts with man. they are not the same.
How do you know which is true?
The one that is consistent and not contradictory. The one that follows the law of love; the law of harmony; the law of non-contradiction.
All contradictory statements are false. That does not mean however that all coherent statements are true.
Logic is not enough, but the lack of it proves falsehood. Hence the thread about pantheism. It is a contradiction because it claims to not be exclusive, and all truth is exclusive.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 10:02 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by anastasia, posted 01-15-2007 12:12 AM Rob has replied
 Message 98 by Vacate, posted 01-15-2007 12:45 AM Rob has replied
 Message 104 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-15-2007 1:06 AM Rob has replied
 Message 148 by Jaderis, posted 01-15-2007 3:45 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 99 of 308 (377074)
01-15-2007 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
01-14-2007 11:46 PM


Re: Those who actually have a point can make it using their own words.
Theology is the Map. Now you say Theology starts with God.
Theology does start with God. But looking at the map is not the same thing as entering the country. Did you not even read the clip I provided?
It wasn't even a link... It was a pasted and copied snippet of a chapter for your convenience.
I don't know what to say!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 11:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 01-15-2007 12:59 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 100 of 308 (377075)
01-15-2007 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by anastasia
01-15-2007 12:12 AM


Re: on Maps
But your position makes sense because it admits to itself? Is that the logic?
That's all you needed to say right there. Forget the rest...
It not only admits to itself, but it understands itself as we would expect God to do. That is one of the things that distinguishes Him from us.
It is consistent, and honest. It is plainly truthful!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by anastasia, posted 01-15-2007 12:12 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by anastasia, posted 01-15-2007 1:05 AM Rob has replied
 Message 121 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-15-2007 1:57 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 105 of 308 (377081)
01-15-2007 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Vacate
01-15-2007 12:45 AM


Re: no contradictions
You do not like the words "exclusive" or "inclusive" and prefer to distort the message that people who use these words are trying to say.
Well the point is, what they are trying to say is not what they are actually saying.
The reason they have a hard time saying it, is for the same reason they would have a hard time explaining to me that 'they do not exist'. Because as soon as they say that, (no matter how they word it) my question arises; 'Who is making that claim?'
You cannot say something that does not exist logically. You can dream, intend, and hope to find, but in the end you are deluding yourself. I don't mean to be cruel with the logic, but this is frightening to me that people are unaware of such obvious clarity.
You tried valiantly to explain your position in defense of others, but in reality, you have said nothing.
This narrow approach to understanding what is meant when a religion calls itself "inclusive" is a perfect example of your strikingly difference stance to what is actually implied.
Please explain what is implied in terms that clearly show what is actually being said. Just say what you mean...
Matthew 5:37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Vacate, posted 01-15-2007 12:45 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by anastasia, posted 01-15-2007 1:16 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 114 by Vacate, posted 01-15-2007 1:32 AM Rob has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024