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Author Topic:   egotheistic pantheism revealed...
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 33 of 308 (376969)
01-14-2007 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by iceage
01-14-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Inclusively Exclusive
Iceage:
As is usually the case the world does not not boil down to a set of "either this", "or that" dichotomy.
I doesn't? Well then your right! And then it does... A logical nightmare.
You promote the death of your own reasoning.
'...cool intellect must prevail not only against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms that deny intellect altogether.'
(C.S. Lewis)
So Iceage, reality is either not exclusive, or nothing else?
Is that what you're saying?
You know Iceage... no matter whether you or I am right or wrong about this foundation of all clear thought, there is one thing we can be absolutely certain about...
We are either right or wrong.
Thanks for playing...
Staw man Fallacy: Assuming and misrepresenting or overstating an opponent's position so that you can easy dismantle it and refute.
I am talking about the pantheist belief that all is God. It is not a strawman. There are other forms of pantheism. Pantheism is not monolithic.
Archer is invoking panentheism. And that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about the spiritual falseness of Panthesm in the Monistic sense as a warning to those flirting with it's deception. they know who they are, and they are absent from this discussion for a reason.
All of the rest of this from you guys is just smokescreens. If you are not monistic panthesits then go away. if you are, then address the topic.
I would expect some moderator action soon unless I have missed something and am wrong (get it? 'wrong').

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 3:20 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 4:35 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 34 of 308 (376971)
01-14-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by iceage
01-14-2007 3:26 PM


Re: panentheism
Psalms 137:9 writes: How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.
Does that sound like Jesus?
It absolutely does! Thanks for the free gift Iceage!
Read this very carefully:
Luke 20:Luke 20:9-19
9 He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12 He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out. 13 "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.' 14 "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15 So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!" 17 Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone'? 18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed." 19 The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.
Acts 4:11 He (christ) is "'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.'
Iceage, you are trying to build your Tower of Babel without 'The Rock' that gives it a firm foundation.
Deuteronomy 32:37 He will say: "Now where are their gods, the rock they took refuge in,..."
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 3:26 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 4:42 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 38 of 308 (376978)
01-14-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Modulous
01-14-2007 4:05 PM


Re: Pantheist here
Hi Mod, I know that there are variations of pantheism. Many variations. I also 'flirted' with the idea for years without knowing it's definition. Is't it interesting that we all go through the same ideas and often think they are unique?
As an aside, it was C.S. Lewis who said that there are no original thinkers, we're all just plagiarizing to one extent or another. I think he is right.
I put it this way, and have heard others elude to the same equivocation:
Just as physical energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so is the case in the metaphysical as truth can be neither created nor destroyed. The only distinction is that the physical world is not eternal and absolute as is the metaphysical reality.
You are actually calling out egotheism not pantheism.
Thanks for your response, please explain this to me...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Modulous, posted 01-14-2007 4:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Modulous, posted 01-14-2007 7:52 PM Rob has replied
 Message 212 by kuresu, posted 01-16-2007 11:04 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 41 of 308 (376981)
01-14-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by iceage
01-14-2007 4:35 PM


Re: Inclusively Exclusive
Again for the 3rd time a religion can be nonexclusivist and not accept every religious thought as valid. A nonexclusive religion just does not state dogmatically that it is the only path to the one true God. You are avoiding that.
I have avoided nothing. You have not perceived the point...
Is there only one path to God or not Iceage?
The path to God is the truth (whatever that turns out to be). We may begin at different points, but if we follow the voice of reason (law of non-contradiction), it leads to only one point; one gate inot reality.
Luke 13:24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
John 10:7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.
If Jesus says there is only one gate, and that he is that gate, then a religion that says otherwise simply must exclude that as true.
I didn't say they can't believe otherwise. They can believe whatever they want! They can believe they are God (as some do). Our beliefs do not change reality other than for our own isolated selves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 4:35 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 4:59 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 49 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 5:00 PM Rob has replied
 Message 53 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 5:15 PM Rob has replied
 Message 132 by Jaderis, posted 01-15-2007 2:33 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 42 of 308 (376982)
01-14-2007 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by anglagard
01-14-2007 4:39 PM


Re: AN ADDENDUM FOR CLARITY
Yes, I felt that you were, and still are, misrepresenting my religion.
Is your religion true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by anglagard, posted 01-14-2007 4:39 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by anglagard, posted 01-14-2007 4:51 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 45 of 308 (376985)
01-14-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by anglagard
01-14-2007 4:49 PM


Re: Not Applicible #1
Was Jesus in human form on earth between 1632 and 1677?
No, but my comment was a metaphor for slapping the truth in it's metaphysical form. In that form, the truth exists eternally. He is here now, stalking us; examining us. Trying to bring us to our senses.
Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by anglagard, posted 01-14-2007 4:49 PM anglagard has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 46 of 308 (376986)
01-14-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by anglagard
01-14-2007 4:51 PM


Re: AN ADDENDUM FOR CLARITY
Obviously I think so. Is yours?
No, my truth cannot be true. The truth is something that I must conform to, because it precedes me.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by anglagard, posted 01-14-2007 4:51 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 47 of 308 (376988)
01-14-2007 4:58 PM


Gotta go
I have to take the boys to the park before I get a divorce. Sometimes jar is right about her. I am not balancing all of my responsibilities well.
I'll get back to y'all...

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 59 of 308 (377017)
01-14-2007 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
01-14-2007 5:00 PM


Re: on Maps
GOD is not a religion. Religions are just something men created. They are but Maps, not the Territory.
In addition, the fact that one part of a religion might be wrong says nothing about other parts of the religion. All the Maps will have areas where they are accurate, and areas where they are not as accurate.
You're quite right... A true religion is not a religion. It is reality.
Here is the difference between Christianity and religion. God came to man. It was top down.
Sure we can't get there.
But He can.
Btw, this thread is not about the definition of religion. it is about the fact that all belief systems; all philosophies; all religions; and reality, are exclusive.
If you want to prove me wrong, then don't disagree, or you will prove me right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 5:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by anglagard, posted 01-14-2007 8:10 PM Rob has replied
 Message 63 by jar, posted 01-14-2007 8:16 PM Rob has replied
 Message 65 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 8:36 PM Rob has replied
 Message 213 by kuresu, posted 01-16-2007 11:21 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 60 of 308 (377019)
01-14-2007 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by anglagard
01-14-2007 5:10 PM


Re: Name Calling
Not only that, but I also believe you will never know what you are talking about in this regard because I believe you will never read Spinoza.
Who revealed the truth to mankind, Jesus Christ or Spinoza?
Matthew 24: 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by anglagard, posted 01-14-2007 5:10 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Jaderis, posted 01-15-2007 2:42 AM Rob has replied
 Message 155 by anglagard, posted 01-15-2007 5:26 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 61 of 308 (377020)
01-14-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by anastasia
01-14-2007 5:15 PM


Re: Inclusively Exclusive
What if the religion simply says there are many paths to the gate?
Nothing wrong with that! That's just the case. We all come from different cultures and starting points.
No matter what the gate turns out to be, or if the religion even attempts to explain, deify, personify or create the gate, they don't exclude THE gate from being true?
They could easily do that.
The point is, if they know the truth, then when presented with the Gospel, they will recognize Him.
If they have never heard of Him, but know him, then they will be saved. The Name of the Lord is many things to many languages. But the idea (the light of Him) is the same. C.S. Lewis made this point differently, but well in Mere Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by anastasia, posted 01-14-2007 5:15 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 64 of 308 (377024)
01-14-2007 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by anglagard
01-14-2007 8:10 PM


Re: What is this Thread About?
So what is this thread about? Shouldn't you know?, you started it.
You got me there...
I suppose it is about the definition of religion, but in only one aspect.
Is the religion logically contradictory?
You tell me Anglagard... Does Spinoza consider his worldview to be exclusive?

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 66 of 308 (377027)
01-14-2007 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Modulous
01-14-2007 7:52 PM


Re: Pantheist here
This new age stuff you are talking about seems clearly egotheism that has come from a Hindu culture.
Yes, that is what I am talking about. Thank you very much.
And that variety of pantheism is what my opening post was talking about. I don't know how many times I have had to say that I know that panthesim is not monolithic.
Those of you who are not egotheists need not apply, but there is something more that needs to be said since it is very simmilar to Christianity as the Wiki article eluded to.
This is from a past research and thinking of mine:
Stating fact or arguing with reason is not, by any means, necessarily egotheist or fear based in nature. However, the denial of fact, or the inability to accept a reasonable and logical argument is always motivated by ego and fear. Some claims demand serious attention because the implications are so inescapably enormous.
That being said, the most offensive thing anyone could say to the fear and ego driven heart is, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
That is the ultimate, staggering, and exclusive claim to sovereignty. It is also a completely reasonable statement. Even so, such a statement is either motivated by the purest form of ego, and/or, it intends to manipulate by the most blatant use of fear, or such a statement is the most selfless expression and profound truth that any man will ever hear. It is a claim that only God can make consistently.
I believe that is why C.S. Lewis wrote the following:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ”I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic”on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg”or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Modulous, posted 01-14-2007 7:52 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by iceage, posted 01-14-2007 9:15 PM Rob has replied
 Message 131 by Modulous, posted 01-15-2007 2:25 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 68 of 308 (377029)
01-14-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
01-14-2007 8:16 PM


Re: on Maps
Christianity can be right while Islam is right and Judaism is right and Hinduism is right and Taoism is right.
I don't deny that, but if that is true, then you must exclude my view that it is not.
So once again truth is exclusive.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5878 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 69 of 308 (377030)
01-14-2007 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by anastasia
01-14-2007 8:41 PM


Re: What is this Thread About?
Tell me again, if there are pantheist christians, how is either exclusive? Why not just a slightly different explanation into which the other can be incorporated?
I'm sure God wouldn't mind moderating his standards... they are awfully strict!
One little white lie would be ok I guess...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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