Get Over Your Fear of Atheism

To the question about my statement regarding the belief that individuals will be judged by the amount of (Gospel) light they received, here are some passages that address the issue.-----------------------------------------------------------------[Story context: After Jesus healed the blind man]Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."- JOHN 9:35-41 (NAS)-----------------------------------------------------------------"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also."But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me."If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin."- JOHN 15:18-22 (NAS)-----------------------------------------------------------------DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL"There are two factors to consider. First, we must weigh Jesus’ words. There are two gospel passages that hint at degrees of severity in judgement.The first is Matthew 11:20-24. At the climax of his denouncing of the cities of Korazin and Bethsaida for their lack of repentance and unbelief, Jesus says, “I tell you it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you” (11:22).Similarly, Capernaum’s unbelief is compared with that of Sodom, and at the day of judgement, it is Sodom that will fare better (11:24).Jesus says Gentile cities”even notoriously evil Gentile cities”will be judged less harshly because they did not have the opportunities to repent and believe as those in which Jesus ministered.Likewise, when speaking of watchful servants in Luke 12:42-49, Jesus contrasts two kinds of servants”those who knew the master’s will and disobeyed it and those who, while their conduct was no better, did not. The latter group, says Jesus, will be “beaten with few blows” (Luke 12:48) while the former will suffer “many blows” (Luke 12:47). In both instances, Jesus ties punishment to the level of truth received and rejected. Those who know more are more accountable."- Tim Perry, Faith Today Error 404 -----------------------------------------------------------------Here's an article, "Concerning Those Who Have Never Heard" Page not found - North American Mission Board
with more information on the topic.-----------------------------------------------------------------And here's a Scripture indicating that Christians who presume to be teachers will be judged more harshly..."Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such, we will incur a stricter judgment."- JAMES 3:1Note: The Bible teaches there will be two different JUDGMENTS - one for those who have not trusted in Christ for salvation, and one for those who have.-
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Nuggin,The point of my argument was not to debate Christianity vs. atheism.My argument was a response to the accusation that Christians are willfully promoting a false teaching equal to young-earth creationism - the belief that all morality comes from God or the Bible.I pointed out that the Bible teaches that all humans have a conscience, innately knowing good from evil.Christians believe the Bible, and therefore believe the human conscience comes from God.Atheists believe God does not exist.Either proposition must be accepted by faith, since we do not possess the infinite knowledge required to know if either is true.----------------------------------------------One thing I've begun to realize is that when you really consider how long ago the Bible was written, it is no surprise that there would be so many skeptics, especially since we have no concrete evidence in modern times that the Bible was supernaturally inspired (except the fulfillment of biblical prophecies).Only a generation or two after the fact, people seem to begin doubting whether major events really happened at all. Some are beginning to doubt the Holocaust, and that was just in the last century.In an age of DNA testing, televised trials, and the ability to know things almost beyond the shadow of a doubt, it is no surprise at all that people would have enormous doubts as to the veracity of a book written thousands of years ago.100 years after the fact few people would believe that a person actually rose from the dead. So it is a wonder that anyone believes Jesus rose from the dead 2,000 years after the fact.Christians would say this is evidence of the supernatural, and atheists would say this is evidence that there are lot of gullible people.Jesus himself knew there would be doubters, when he said, "...However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"In Luke 21, when Jesus was talking about His return, they asked,"When will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven."But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you..."And Paul certainly knew what was coming, when he said:"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God ” having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them."-----------------------------------------------The debate between Christianity and atheism will never end. Some choose to believe the Bible and some don't. I certainly didn't expect to settle that debate -

dwise1,You said:"The belief I've been referring to is the belief that morality only has meaning and should be practiced if you believe that God exists, and that as soon as you no longer believe that God exists then you are released from any and all moral obligation and may do whatever you want with no limitations. That is the false teaching I've been referring to."Christians may speak philosophically, in saying that if a person is not a Christian, then they have no basis for morality - as you've apparently heard some Christians saying.You said in earlier posts that Christians who are concerned with truth should expose this teaching as erroneous, and I argued that it was essentially an academic argument, with little if any consequence in real life.Then you argued that it was still a false teaching that should be corrected...I guess we're going in circles.I don't view this issue as having any real consequence. If some Christians speak philosophically in saying that non-Christians have no basis for morality, they are doing so knowing full well that the Bible teaches we all have a conscience.So it seems this "Christian concept" could be taken however a person wants to take it.Obviously, the Christians espousing the view are not encouraging non-Christians to live like hell. They are merely saying that non-Christians are not recognizing or adhering to the "moral creed" of the Bible - our basis for morality.I addressed the issue because you seemed convinced that it was an erroneous Christian teaching that needed exposing and correction.But what could a Christian really say?"Hey you Christians out there, stop saying that all morality is based in Christianity alone. Atheists can be moral too, and if you Christians ever give up the faith, you better remember that! If you become an atheist, you should keep your morals - since we all have a conscience anyway, and you shouldn't stop living good just because you no longer believe in the Bible. That would be wrong! So follow your moral reasoning, and be good, damn it."Okay, guess I've said it, and it accomplishes nothing.Now we can move on... -
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You assume that Christians are morons, and that telling them to "keep" or "lose" their morals will somehow affect the way they choose to live following a loss of faith.If atheists choose to abide by an independently-determined, yet societally-influenced "standard of morality," then that is their prerogative.No one is going to convince them to abide by what is in fact a completely subjective standard of morality.The Bible provides a fairly clear standard of morality, and our consciences convict us of what is obviously immoral.Beyond that, people do what they truly WANT to do, factoring in their conscience, their beliefs, societally-influenced standards, and consequences.NO ONE IS TELLING CHRISTIANS THAT IF THEY ABANDON THEIR FAITH, THEY SHOULD BECOME IMMORAL, AND ANY REFERENCE TO SUCH IS CLEARLY SAID TONGUE-IN-CHEEK.If Rick Warren says something to the effect of, "If I weren't a Christian, I could do whatever I want," he is probably meaning this:1.) If God created man in His image, He created us with value and purpose.2.) If God did NOT create man, then we are really just evolutionary creatures, with NO value innately bestowed upon us by a Creator.3.) If we are only evolutionary creatures, then there is NO clear and compelling reason why we should be held to any higher standard than that of the animals.Do you think our advanced intellect demands that we be moral creatures?Do you think that a recognition of so-called "moral reasoning" or an evolved conscience demands goodness?THAT IS YOUR ASSUMPTION! NOTHING MORE.Some, including myself, would argue that our consciences naturally tell us that homosexual intercourse is repulsive, against nature, and immoral.However, an "enlightened atheist" - a schmuck who thinks he knows enough to conclude there is no God - would "reason" that such activity is NOT immoral, EVEN IF IT COULD BE PROVEN THAT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS HOMOSEXUALITY HAS BEEN NATURALLY CONSIDERED IMMORAL, EVEN IN SOCIETIES WHICH HAVE HAD NO CONTACT WITH THE BIBLE.So what atheists REALLY WANT is the ability to decide what IS and WHAT IS NOT moral - FOR THEMSELVES!Those who want to determine their own morality are among those who resort to atheism. They resent any external force or supreme being telling them what is or is not "right for them."So for the last time, I believe your argument is a complete waste of time.It accomplishes nothing.Even if Christians began saying, "We recognize that a belief in God or the Bible is not required for humans to be naturally obligated to live moral lives," it would be utterly meaningless.This is a statement of the obvious, since we all know humans have consciences. And it is also 100% ambiguous, since there are only a handful of activities which are ALWAYS considered immoral in all societies which have existed apart from Christianity. In fact, when you consider ritual human sacrifices and other activities, even that is a stretch...Apart from the Bible - or some other standard - morality is SUBJECTIVE.And when you meet the former-Christian-turned-atheist who tells you he became an EVIL person because he had no more sense of right and wrong after losing his faith (and having been told there was no moral standard apart from God), you will have met nothing more than a LIAR with a bad excuse.-
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