Get Over Your Fear of Atheism

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When I read what you wrote there I wanted to reach out to you.

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I had that same reaction, crash. I really felt sad for the guy.However, I thought that it was sad that he in no way had to give up his faith in a god to reconcile it with science.That's what religious ignorance does to people who's impulse is to be intellectually honest. It makes them lie to themselves.

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Some Christians are walking away from the faith, and I suppose I could still make that decision myself. But if I did, it would probably be because I allowed my doubts to overwhelm my faith, and then decided I'd rather live a life outside of God's boundaries (as described in the Bible). I hope that never happens because I really don't believe I'd be a better for it (in this life, or the next).

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Why don't you think you'd be better for it?

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I don't think I'd be better for it because I believe God's guidelines for living are designed to protect us as much as to serve His cause.

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There's no reason for you to stop living by a particular set of guidelines if you believe them to be good, regardless of where you believe they came from.In addition, you might feel free to alter your guidelines in response to rational assesment instead of being locked in to a system that may not always be best for you or for others.

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Some atheists may live moral lives of their own accord.

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I take it that you don't actually know any atheists?Also, you do realize that most people who have ever lived didn't believe in your particular version of god, don't you, and that you are an atheist with respect to all the thousands of other gods that all other people have believed in just as sincerely as you believe in yours?

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I'd probably become a hedonist.

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Really? How odd. Why would you throw away all of those guidelines if you believe they are good ones?

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Not to mention I'd probably still "believe" in my heart, even if I didn't want to.

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Then you wouldn't really be an athiest.

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I think I'll believe in the coming Judgment of God until the day I die. I believe Hell will be punishment followed by eternal destruction if the Lake of Fire. So I don't actually fear "burning forever," but I don't want to miss out on Heaven.

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So, is it more moral, in your opinion, to do good because you don't want to miss out on heaven, or because you just believe that doing good is the right thing to do?

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I've also lived believing Jesus was my closest friend all my life, and I wouldn't want to give that up either. I depend on Him, and if it turns out I'm wrong in the end, and there is no God, I won't regret my decision for a minute. (I'm sure "little Mark" will, but following him would have cost me my family anyway. So I'll still be better off, no matter what

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But how can living a lie make you better off?Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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I freely admit I "do good" because I believe in God, and He "tells me to." If I didn't believe in God or the Bible, I would WANT to abandon the clean life I have lived up to this point - for the sake of pleasure.

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Well, that makes you kind of a scary, defective sociopath, doesn't it?

I really don't understand how your response addresses my post.My point is that most non-believers seem to have no more trouble following commonly-accepted moral codes and societal norms than believers.A non-believer's reasons for not cheating on someone they promised to remain exclusive to would be different from yours, such as but not limited to:1) they don't think it is right to be dishonest.2) they don't want to hurt the person they made the promise to.3) they don't want to experience the social stigma of being known to be a liar and a jerk.Why wouldn't any of these reasons be adequate to keep you from behaving in a way you believe to be "not good"?It seems to me that if the most important reason you refrain from cheating on your spouse is because you are concerned with your own eternal salvation rather than the pain you cause others, you are ultimately doing good for very selfish reasons.

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'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"I haven't studied the theory of evolution much because I disagree 100%
with its claims."--ICDESIGN

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During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.

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What makes you think that atheists "do whatever the hell they want"?Unless they are sociopaths, ALL people, believers included, live more or less by a combination societal rules and a personal moral code.

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Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences.

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The same is true for you, isn't it?You fear eternal damnation for yourself, which is a consequence of "jumping the fence".On the other hand, Atheist moral codes tend to be much more concerned with how their actions affect others around us.They are both consequences.

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That's why I admitted near the beginning of this thread that I if ever walked away from the faith, it would probably be at least partially motivated by a desire to do whatever the hell I wanted - because that was the temptation I felt when I considered the possibility.

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Maybe that says more about your current life and your happiness with it than about Atheism.As I explained above, not believing in the supernatural doesn't mean you can "do whatever you want".

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I believe many atheists simply conclude there is no need for a God in this universe, there isn't enough compelling evidence for one, and they certainly don't want to have to make themselves accountable to one.

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Correct on points a and b, wrong on point c.Tell me, do you not want to have to make yourself accountable to Vishnu? Isis? Athena?Do you resentfully and petulantly turn your back on those gods the way you envision Atheists doing so to your god? Or, do you not feel anything at all regarding those gods?When you realize that atheists feel about your god the way you feel about all other gods (that is, you feel nothing), you will understand atheism a little better.

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I went on a bit of rabbit trail here, but I think my original point was that trying to group Christians or atheists as being morally better or worse than anyone else is probably a waste of time - because statistics show there is essentially no difference between us - behaviorally.

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Actually, statistically Atheists behave better than Christians.They get divorced at the lowest rate compared to the strictest sects of Chritianity, and they are represented in our prisions at a rate lower than the percentage of Atheists in the general population. Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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I can relate to what he said, and it isn't necessarily that he is saying that atheists can me immoral, but that you don't have the burden of worrying about what God thinks of your actions, you don't have the guilt, the worry incase you sin, or the obligations, to pray etc..

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He said that he would cheat on his wife if he stopped believing in god, and his justification for this was that if he was an Atheist he could do whatever the hell he wanted.That certainly looks as though he is saying that Atheism justifies being immoral, or justifies hurting other people.

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First off, when I said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I might become a hedonist, it should be noted that I (and many other Christians) practically see "the rest of the world" (in America, at least) as being just that - hedonists.

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LOL!How many athiests and agnostics do you personally know?Upon what evidence do you base your claim that everybody else in the US behaves immorally except for people of your religion?You DO know that strict Christians have the highest rates of divorce, don't you (and that Atheists and Agnostics have the lowest)? And the sexism of conservative Christianity is well-known, along with it's ill-treatment of people of color and homosexuals. It's anti-intellectual attitudes, and fear of science and progress are legend, as well.I know not every conservative Christian is sexist, racist, homophobic, and are anti-science and anti-learning, but a lot of them are. Certainly more so than the general US population.I mean, Ted Haggard, the leader and moral example to the congregation of one of the most powerful Conservative Christian churches in America, was getting high on crystal meth and having sex with a gay prostitute.None of my Atheist friends have ever done that, nor any of the other morally-reprehensible things we seem to hear about these Conservative christians doing. Buying child porn, anally raping their narcoleptic wives, embezzeling money from their churches, calling for the assasination of world leaders, supporting bruutal dictators to protect their own business interests, etc. etc. etc.

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So I probably should have said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I would lose my biblical moral code, and then I would "LIVE LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD."

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In many cases "living like the rest of the world" would be an improvement of the morals of the Conservative Christian.

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My reference to a fear of hedonism was essentially a reference to the loosening of my moral code to "allow" for pre-marital or extra-marital sex. My 13-year marriage has been a rocky one, and my wife and I have often stayed together for God and/or the kids. If I had become an atheist, then a big barrier - God's commands regarding sexuality - would have been removed from my life, one that currently stops me from "causing" my family to unravel. If I became an atheist, I could potentially give up on my marriage, divorce, and perhaps have pre-marital or extra-marital sex. And I believe that any of these actions would negatively affect my children, as well as my wife.

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I am going to tell you one of the most profound things I ever learned about marriage.Any marriage that you don't believe you have the choice to leave isn't a healthy marriage. It's a prison.But anyway, if you think you would hurt your wife and children by being unfaithful, then why would you do it?Fear of being punished by God is a pretty empty reason to not hurt your family, if you ask me.

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Christians say the human conscience came from God - a belief that is based upon Scripture.

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Atheists say the human conscience is a result of evolution.

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Neither BELIEF is scientifically provable or disprovable.

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Actually, we are quite confident that the human conscience is brain-based. IOW, biological.Nearly 20 years ago, neurologist Antonio Damasio conducted studies to test that very concept.His work was done with people with damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex part of their brains. These people become sociopaths, unable to feel remorse for their actions, nor sympathise with others. Brain scans of people diagnosed with sociopathy (who were born that way, not brain-damaged from trauma) show differences in that same part of their brains compared to non-sociopaths, as well.Everything else about us has evolved, so why couldn't our brains, including our conscience, have evolved?Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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human conscience being biological does not preclude it's inclusion by a creative god.

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Sure, if you want to tack that on there.The reason I posted that stuff about Damasio's work was because mpb1 wrote:

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Christians say the human conscience came from God - a belief that is based upon Scripture.

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Atheists say the human conscience is a result of evolution.

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Neither BELIEF is scientifically provable or disprovable.

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Disregarding the misuse of the term "scientifically proven", I was simply presenting the evidence that in fact, the human conscience actually is the result of evolution. I was also showing that it isn't merely a BELIEF, but a well-supported conclusion based upon solid evidence.

I know you've been getting a lot of replies, so perhaps you missed mine.

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Christians believe the Bible, and therefore believe the human conscience comes from God.

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Atheists believe God does not exist.

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Either proposition must be accepted by faith, since we do not possess the infinite knowledge required to know if either is true.

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Well, before, you said that the idea that one's conscience evolved was unable to be verified scientifically, which is the proper analogy.My post #102 in this thread addressed this very issue. I'll cut-n-paste from that post here: So, there is no faith involved in the idea that the human conscience evolved.

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Do you think that a recognition of so-called "moral reasoning" or an evolved conscience demands goodness?

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THAT IS YOUR ASSUMPTION! NOTHING MORE.

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That is not true, as Damasio's work shows.We evolved to empathise with each other, as would be logical in a highly social species like humans.

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Some, including myself, would argue that our consciences naturally tell us that homosexual intercourse is repulsive, against nature, and immoral.

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That's only true if you are afraid of gay people.Gay people think heterosexual sex is icky for them. It is the most natural thing in the world for gay people to respond sexually to people of the same gender.

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So what atheists REALLY WANT is the ability to decide for themselves what IS and WHAT IS NOT moral - FOR THEMSELVES!

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But everyone, ultimately, does this.Each individual person decides for themselves what is moral. You just decided to adopt the moral code you were indoctrinated with from childhood that is based upon a specific organized superstition.

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Those who want to determine their own morality are among those who resort to atheism. They resent any external force or supreme being telling them what is or is not "right for them."

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Er, no. Unbelievers don't "resent" what doesn't exist.Do you disbelieve Zeus becasue you resented him telling you what is right or wrong?

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my fiance

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Hey, congrats, honey!

Crash, you wanna know how to soften any statement?Smilies. Use the smily and Bob's your uncle.For example, I could write:"Well, THAT was stupid of you."and it sounds pretty impolite.But if I tack a smily (especially a winking one) on there like this:"Well, THAT was stupid of you" You take a lot of the sting and heat out of the rebuke.

Kick your ass?I'd be happy to, Mike.