Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

As I stated in Message 1 and in several posts: I don’t feel that Jesus taught that we should give up control of our lives, but I do feel that he taught that we should give up wrong behavior.So far we have gone over the various meanings of surrender, submit, and repent.When we give up wrong behavior for right behavior we can say that we have surrendered (given up) the wrong behavior, but that is not giving up self-control. The wrong behavior may no longer have control over us, but we haven't given up our self-control.Now if God/Jesus required everyone to give up control, we need to determine control of what?This article by Pastor Yau is an example of a teaching that I consider to be misleading and can be detrimental for some people.James 4:13-17 is the basis for this article. But what the author of James seems to be talking about is the future which we don't have control over anyway. So it comes back to what I said in Message 13. It is more about understanding what we have control over and what we don't.The final verse in James 4 confirms that the author of James felt they were still in control of their behavior. This is the conclusion of the article: I think it is misleading and causes some people to expect God to control what is still under their purview.In Luke 12 Jesus said not to worry about what we don't have control over, but I don't feel that he implied we should give up control of what we are supposed to have control over.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

When Jesus said, 'Father, not My will be done, but Yours', He does not say 'I will try to follow You'. He submits to whatever is desired by God.

---

Jesus was conceived for that purpose though. Jesus could have just as easily decided not to go through with the plan. But this isn't really about what Jesus was required or born to do, it is about what the average person is required to do.I think we've all agreed that changing one's behavior is an ongoing task. But I don't agree that it comes about by giving up the ability to control our decisions or actions. So the question is what are we supposedly giving up (surrendering) control of?

quote:

---

At this point I feel I must say that for most Christians, there is no difference in authority amoung the different books. For myself, at least, this 'Jesus/God' said so, is no more compelling than what Paul or Peter said. If you want to talk about the Bible, why are you limiting it to the parts YOU feel are 'important'? Maybe you don't want to talk about what Paul says, but as per your topic title, Paul is relevent.

---

I'm quite aware of that, but I don't feel that I have limited anything. In reality, there is a difference. Paul is not God or Jesus. The disciples are not God or Jesus. So when looking at the plain text, what is supposedly said by Jesus or God carries more weight than what was supposedly said by the disciples or written by Paul. I also haven't said that what they supposedly said or wrote has no value, but they are speaking from different positions.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

Cop out, sorry. The average Christian is required to do what Christ did.

---

Your comment was: Your comment that Jesus did not say "I will try to follow you" is what sparked my comment. If you believe the nativity stories, then Jesus was conceived for the coming purpose. IOW, he was predisposed to doing God's will and supposedly had a direct connection. It's like comparing a natural athlete to someone who has to work to reach the same goal.In Matthew 21 Jesus shared this example. We are allowed to falter.I've already agreed that we are asked to submit (which is not giving up control) to God's will, but if you look closely at what Jesus supposedly prayed at Gethsemane, he is speaking of the future which he does not have control over anyway. Which goes back to the article I linked to in Message 188 and brings us to what are we supposedly giving up control of?To my question (So the question is what are we supposedly giving up (surrendering) control of?) you responded: We need self-control to be able to do what we should be doing and not do what we shouldn't be doing. So your response doesn't really answer the question of what we are giving up (surrendering) control of.No one (that I have noticed) in this thread has advocated that Christians are not to follow God's will/commands.
So can we get past that and to the point of the discussion?
Message 1: It is a discussion on what is written in the Bible that does or does not support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives. Surrendering control!

quote:

---

Paul is spaeking from no less a position regarding plain text than you are!

---

Exactly!But is Paul addressing plain text meanings or is he combining text to create a third meaning, IOW, sermonizing? This would make an excellent new topic, since answering this question would take this topic off course.Bottom line: Paul is not God or Jesus.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I know that some find my way of viewing the Bible disconcerting, but to truly understand what is expected of us, I don't see how one can do otherwise.In the age of the Bible writer's slavery is very real. Whether born into slavery, made a slave after a war, or sold into slavery. Today we (U.S.) are too far removed from the realities of slavery. We differentiate between slave and servant. As I understand it, in the Bible age there wasn't such a distinction.Given that, we look at who is calling who a slave and what word they are using.We have the Greek word doulosIf we look closely the word isn't used in reference to the general population of believers. It is like what I said in Message 86. When someone supports a presidential candidate, there is a difference between those of use who just vote and those who deal with the campaign itself. Those working in the campaign deny (lose sight of one's own interests) themselves to further their candidate.The prodigal son parable refers more to the general population, not those called for special duties.Everyone wasn't called to be Moses, The Twelve, or Paul.What was expected of the average housewife or local dung dealer?Even today everyone is not called to be a Martin Luther King or a preacher.Again what is expected of the average housewife, farmer, or executive?We are still dealing with being required to surrender control of ...

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

The bottom line is that God expects us to understand that we have no right to refuse Him. None. Never ever.

---

Again show where God or Jesus support that statement.To obey, one has to have self-control and I haven't seen any support that God or Jesus expects us to give up control of our mind, actions, etc. One has to have control to submit. One has to have control to repent and continue obeying or keeping our behavior right.I have not advocated disobedience or rebellion.

quote:

---

Just for grins, would anyone care to make a case that Jonah didn't surrender and serve God, or that God didn't want him to? I gotta see this.

---

You should be grinning. The tale supposedly would have been considered humorous in its day.After God showed mercy on the city Jonah essential said "What is the point of me giving a warning when you always show mercy? It’s not fair! I might as well be dead!"Jonah was the equivalent of a grumpy employee. But he was allowed to argue with God.This thread is about the teaching of surrendering (giving up) control of our lives to God, not the other meanings of surrender.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

It is quite evident what this thread is really about, and it has nothing to do with learning what the scripture says.

---

It has everything to do with learning what the authors of the Bible were telling their audience.

quote:

---

The bible says disciples were called Christians.

---

Actually it says the disciples were called Christians (a follwer of Christ), which they were literally.
A disciple is a pupil, a learner. So who's your teacher? (rhetorical)Literally today we are not students or followers of Jesus. We learn from clergy and laypersons and follow their lead. The most we can do today is follow what we know of the teachings of Jesus (Christ). Understanding the plain text meaning of the scripture is the closest we can get to understanding what Jesus taught to those in his presence.

quote:

---

People who contend against Jesus, God, and the bible on an intentional and continual basis are not disciples, not Christians and have no business claiming they are.

---

As I have said several times in this thread, I have said nothing against Jesus or God. I have not questioned Jesus or God. I am questioning a current teaching which I feel goes against what Jesus taught and God wanted from the average person.

quote:

---

They know they can't fool God, so they must have some motive for fooling men. The bible tells us who their master is.

---

I find it fascinating that some can believe that God inspires a clergy to mix unrelated scriptures to create a third meaning or teaching that can be unrelated to the context of the scriptures used, but cannot believe that God would inspire anyone to study and understand the plain text meaning of the text.

quote:

---

If I don't find some threads which contain honest discussions, I don't see why I should waste my time here.

---

Honest discussion? You've just labeled me as unfit to be called a Christian because I dare to question the teachings of men. Men, not God.A careful reading of Message 1 shows the point behind this thread. EvC is a very diverse group of people. Geographics, beliefs, careers, etc. Using metaphorical or figurative speech outside of the common group or level makes accurate communication difficult.Right now you and I disagree because you appear to feel it is wrong to question and investigate the teachings of men and I don't feel that it is wrong to question and investigate the teachings of men.Do God or Jesus say it is wrong to question or investigate the teachings of men? The easiest way to shut me up is to show where God or Jesus state it is wrong to question and investigate the teachings of men or that the average person is required to give up control of their lives in the true sense of the word surrender.Getting down to the bare bones is as honest as you can get in a discussion.As I've said many times before, everyone's spiritual path is different. If anyone is uncomfortable studying the plain text, they can leave the discussion at any time.Just as I do not malign their's, I would appreciate it greatly if those who choose not to look at the plain text or it is outside their comfort zone, not malign my integrity or spirituality to cover up their discomfort.So back to the topic.
What do you feel God asks the average person to give up control of?
Be specific and show the text that supports your position.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

What I have read so far in this thread is that God wants us to agree to obey his commands. IOW, voluntarily submit.What I don't read is that God or Jesus require us to give up control of anything that we truly have control over. In James 4 the author spoke of worrying about the future, which we don't have control over anyway.This teaching I found was interesting in the author's use of surrender, control, and self-control. The Secret to Having a Great Marriage and FamilyBut in the list of traits that are to be the result of the Holy Spirit's work in a Christian's life, we find self-control. The author states that the degree to which these manifest themselves within an individual depends on the spiritual maturity of the individual or their maturity in Christ. So self-control is expected.Although the author talks of giving up control to God or the Holy Spirit, the gist of the article is more in line with choosing to follow God's commands in relation to our life choices. At the end of the article the author equates committing a sinful act with taking back control of one's life, whereas, following God's commands equates to giving control to God. I feel that the idea presented in current teachings of surrendering control of one's life (the part we actually have control of) to God or Jesus is used figuratively or metaphorically, but not literally in the true sense of the word surrender.We have control, but we have to choose what path we take.So when one is speaking to a nonbeliever, people can send the wrong message when stating that Christians are required to give up control of their lives to God/Jesus. It is wiser to use universally understood language and not religious jargon to depict the true relationship God expects from his children.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

...The Master, who owns and controls the spirit, controls all true christians. ...
YOU WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN UNLESS YOU CHOOSE NOT TO CHOOSE. SURRENDER. ...

---

More Christian jargon that doesn't really reflect what Jesus or Paul taught.In Romans 8:5-8 Paul is explaining that the carnal mind is unable to please God because it does not subject itself to God's Laws. By contrast the spiritual mind is able to please God because it will submit to following God's Laws.So either we choose to follow God's laws or we don't. Just as we choose to follow our state and federal laws or we don't.There is no giving up control of our mind (surrender).

quote:

---

If you "make" a child; even by our law you have a right to rule/control that child.

---

To a point, but not into adulthood. Parents have authority (control) over their child's environment and training, but we can't physically control their minds or actions.A parent can force a child to sit in front of the piano and command the child to play with threat of punishment or promise of a treat, but the parent cannot make the child's hands actually play the piano. The child has to make the choice.As adults we are responsible for choosing to follow the laws that govern the culture we live in and we no longer have the urge to rebel against our parents; unless of course the parent is trying to maintain control into adulthood.I don't see where God has instructed humans not to grow up spiritually. (Another teaching topic idea)So you really haven't shown where God or Jesus requires that humans actually give up control of their lives (surrender), not just choosing to submit to God's laws.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

Rather they appear to have been written out of the personal experiences of believers in Christ.

---

Yes, songs tend to be written out of personal experiences and in descriptive language to bring out the feelings of the writer.In 1896, Judson W. Van DeVenter wrote "I surrender all" which dealt with his decision to change careers. He changed from an art teacher to an evangelist. But did he give up any more than anyone else who decides to make a drastic career change?

quote:

---

We are sometimes called to wait on God. That is to stop one's doing and trustfully wait in prayer and praise. I don't consider that passivity. But I would say that that is a form of surrender to God. You surrender up your anxious striving and wait on God in faith. That sometimes does happen.

---

Which is what I said earlier, that we stop worrying about what we don't have control of anyway. So we really aren't truly giving up control of anything. We learn to change what we can and accept what we can't.

quote:

---

Since the natural man is not use to living by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, one certainly does have to "surrender" up his or her former manner of independent "godless" living.

---

Which is choosing to change one's behavior. So we give up doing wrong behavior, but we aren't really giving up control of our lives. We are choosing a path of behavior.IMO, the term surrendering one's life is jargon since what you are saying doesn't really go along with the general usage of the term surrender as opposed to the creative usage.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

But I think your summary of the song is superficial at best. Rather than being simply a song about a career change it is really a song about consecration of his life to serve Christ.

---

It wasn't a summary or a review. I provided the basis for the songs inspiration and asked the question: But did he give up any more than anyone else who decides to make a drastic career change? Did he surrender (give up control) all or just change the focus of his career?I stated in Message 1: When one is told to surrender one’s life to Jesus, the word surrender implies giving up power or control of our lives.In Message 83 I stated:

quote:

---

We are sometimes called to wait on God....We stop doing what we do have control of, namely our activity.

---

That sounds like passivity, which you said in Message 222 is not the case. Can you give a more specific example that demonstrates what you mean?

quote:

---

purpledawn writes:

​

So we really aren't truly giving up control of anything. We learn to change what we can and accept what we can't.

​

Sounds to me like a humanist spin on Christian discipleship.
Did this come from some Twelve Step program slogan?

---

Actually that psychology of thought was presented in a prayer by theologian Reinhold Niebuhr about 1926. The first portion has been adopted and altered by many, including AA.

quote:

---

That could be because you have not experienced such a thing. And then as an outsider, it sounds foreign to anything you have known.

---

My experience is irrelevant. A Christian should be able to clearly explain religious teachings in terminology that can be understood by a nonbeliever; just as a scientist, lawyer, computer geek, etc. should be able to clearly explain their specific lingo or jargon to one outside of those careers.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

The word "surrender" as related to giving in one's will to the will of God is not unrealistic. I fear that by saying that what Purpledawn may really be trying to say is that Christ is not alive. I am suspicious that Purpledawn is really teaching that Christ being a living Person is not biblical.

---

This thread is questioning the teaching that one should surrender (give up) control of their life to God/Jesus and whether God/Jesus actually requires such an action. It is not wrong to question the teachings of man, so please address the position I've presented and refrain from putting words in my mouth to steer the discussion in a personal direction.Paul's writings are probably what inspired the teaching of giving up control of one's life, but what teaching of God/Jesus supports such a teaching?Acquiescence, Not Surrender (Message 56)Being taken captive doesn't mean one willingly choses to follow. My impression is that God/Jesus wants people to choose to follow.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Life experiences are not exactly the same. Each individual's spiritual journey is just as varied as life experiences. Individual personal experiences are of no use if people can't clearly describe what is happening.The "taste and see" concept is fine if one can make it clear what the person is tasting. Too many times when the taster doesn't experience the same "taste" or feelings, they are told they didn't "taste" the right thing or didn't "taste" it correctly. They also attack the sincerity of the individual's spirituality.Computer's can come off the assembly line all exactly the same, but each individual's experience with the computer are different. Some good and some bad. If a person says the software isn't performing the action that it is supposed to, we can find the problem so that the person will get the proper response from the software.The basics of the teaching should be clear and not a "you'll understand it when you see it or feel it" response.Hymns are nice for expressing ones feeling as songs are, but they aren't written to explain teachings. They are written to express emotions, feelings, hopes, etc.One's relationship with God/Jesus is personal. The emotions and feelings that one experiences are personal varied; but if we are truly expected to surrender (give up) control of our lives, that action should be the same.Anyone who can read, can see and read the Bible. Interpretation, emotions, and feelings will vary.
Anyone who wants to can see and be baptized. Again, emotions and feelings will vary.But when it comes to explaining how one actually surrenders (give up) control of one's life to God, explanation and justification is lacking.If the premise is that one is required to take this action, justification and clear instructions should be available.Repentance can be justified and explained.
Submission can be justified and explained.Surrendering (give up) control of one's life has not been justified or clearly explained.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

I don't agree that someone speaking of her personal experience is of no use.

---

There's an "if" in my statement. If people can't clearly describe what is happening. Plus my statement is in relation to this discussion which is about surrendering. The writer of the song did not give up control of his life. He changed careers which can be emotional for anyone. An executive gives up his lucrative career to devote his life to teaching children. They did not give up control of their lives.You have not described the actual process of giving up control of one's life. What you have described so far is submission, which I have already agreed in Message 1 and Message 56 as well as several other times is covered by God/Jesus in the Bible.As I said in Message 227, this thread is questioning the teaching that one should surrender (give up) control of their life to God/Jesus and whether God/Jesus actually requires such an action. It is not just about the word surrender, it is about the teaching that one should give up control of their life to God/Jesus.

quote:

---

Do you think you can teach about marriage to the point that a person could know what it is without being married?

---

Surrendering is an action. Getting married is an action. The process of getting married can be described clearly. The relationship within the marriage, is just that a relationship. I've already stated that the relationship with God/Jesus is personal and not something that can be taught; but if we are required by God/Jesus to give up control of our lives, the process should be clear so that people know that they are giving up control of their lives.The discussion isn't about what it is like to surrender or submit to God/Jesus. As I said in Message 1, it is a discussion on what is written in the Bible that does or does not support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives.What you have described so far and in the bulk of your message is yielding to a course of action or giving up wrong behavior, not giving up control of one's life.

quote:

---

By the way. Surrender is only one word to discribe the experience. You need not be hung up on that one word.

---

You're arguing what I've already agreed is covered by God/Jesus in the Bible. I'm not hung up on the word, I'm hung up on the current teaching that states we are required to give up control of our lives to God/Jesus and whether that is supported by God/Jesus in the Bible.Edited by purpledawn, : Fixed Link

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

As I've already showed, you're addressing the wrong issue.There is no argument that repentance, submission, subjection, or forms of yielding are supported by the Bible.What you haven't shown is that God/Jesus requires us to give up control of our lives.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The teaching that I'm questioning is the teaching that one should surrender (give up) control of their life to God/Jesus. It isn't just the word surrender. It is the teaching that is being discussed.Control of your life, not control of your ego or will or desires. The teaching is that one must give up, relinquish, or yield control of one's life to God/Jesus.

quote:

---

In the Army, before a soldier can be properly useful as a subordinate, they have to surrender their Ego and desire to be independent.

---

Maybe when one is forced to serve, but when we choose to serve we don't lose our ego or independence any more than we do to any supervisor in a job. That is one difference between choosing to serve and being forced to serve.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz