Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

Saul undoubtedly thought that killing Christians was the right thing to do. This brings up a good point about how to tell the difference between a person who is following God and following a religion or ideology. Saul evidently came to his understanding rather quickly. So who was Saul working for? Was he working for himself or was he working for a religious ideology? Did he enjoy throwing people in prison?Ths story continues... According to the author, Saul is now being told what to do by a new Boss. Evidently, the impression was rather strong! Saul was converted, evidently willfully, and began to preach. Now I suppose that we could legitimately ask the question of whether Saul was convinced and converted due to a blinding light or whether Saul was influenced more so by this following of The Way and this strange group of people that fervently believed that Jesus was the Son of God? Some could argue that the zealot exchanged one movement for another. Others may argue that the book of Acts is written as a testimonial in favor of the movement. So in context, lets assume that Saul willfully came to a better understanding of which movement to support and follow. Since he willfully did so, we could expect that he surrendered in some way shape or form. He evidently was more than willing to put his life on the line for the principles in which he believed.Consider, however, something which he later purportedly wrote: Does this indicate that Paul (Saul) is struggling with his ideologies or does this suggest that Paul is struggling with surrendering his basic desires? Edited by Phat, : spellcheck

All I know is that I think that I am more in control of my own life, as a Christian, than I ever used to be when I first got saved. (or came to an understanding)If my Pastor had told me that God was calling me to move to Wyoming and start a church, I may well have obeyed. My identity in my religion and ideology was determined through my relationship with that Pastor and that charismatic church.Now, I feel that I understand what it means to be a Christian better than I used to. Of course I still listen to the advice of others--people whom are believers and whom I trust in that their wisdom and judgment are sound. I am unafraid to question them and I am much more likely to listen to my inner conscience and do what I honestly believe to be right rather than what someone else is telling me. (Usually, however, they and I agree anyway)Edited by Phat, : spelling

The Mother would ideally feel an inner unction to correct the mistake as an example to her daughter and just simply because it is the right thing to do.

It could happen many ways...not just through the Mother. It may be the Daughter that reminds the Mother to pay. It may be neither of them at the moment....but a day or so later there may arise conviction from the conscience of one or the other....probably the one who got away with the free purse.Actually, I don't know what would hypothetically happen. Human nature can rationalize anything. Christian or not. Many people have been Christians all their lives, but only a few actually have an awareness of what it means to die to self. That is what the surrender aspect of all this is all about. Its not surrender to an ideology or a church or a cause. Its surrender in a personal sense to the base instincts of the flesh. The Mother would be faced with the choice of saving money or being honest.

My point was that as a new believer I was prone to being controlled by a Pastor. This is no longer the case. If God did want me to go to Wyoming, I would know it in my heat and another person may mention it as a confirmation rather than a direction. It was like that for my detention center ministry. I was seeking direction and purpose in my Christian walk twelve years ago when a man approached me at a church gathering and asked me to join him in volunteer work at a detention center.I was always drawn to reach out to youth, admittedly for emotionally immature reasons, but the mentor ship and discipline of having to actually do it has helped me immeasurably over the years and I can now say with confidence that I am quite good at it---so much so that I voluntarily step away from the ministry whenever I feel that I have some inner work of my own to do. God gave me that ministry and no human will ever take it away. (except me--if I refuse to listen to the Spirit)I am not controlled by God...but I am led by Him as I seek the lessons that I will use to present.Christians are transformed by the Spirit rather than controlled by it. I think this is a crucial point to differentiate between a religious zealot and a willing vessel. Edited by Phat, : clarification

Only by having it could we voluntarily submit to Him to begin with. Otherwise we would be creatures of genetics and instinct...without any ability to choose anything. Birds don't choose to fly south each year, ya know.

Its not like that. Its more like voluntarily submitting to the right Spirit or else you-will-fry-yourself-by-choosing-the-other-spirit.

Good post, Ringo! It certainly gives one pause to think. I was also thinking of the --Sons not slaves --metaphors that Paul used to kick around....lemme find one: Looking through Pauls writings, he occasionally refers to the voluntary slavery metaphor and then he also refers to the sons metaphor.I would have to read deeper....Edited by Phat, : spelling

b b, how do you get along with your church? Do they control your life or do you willingly attend services and events as you choose?Additionally, do you believe that Christians are supposed to think for themselves or do you believe that Christians need to surrender to the Bible? If so, how will we ever know what the Bible means without thinking for ourselves?

I agree with Ringo that God does not expect us to fearfully run to His corner. Cheerful giving also means cheerfully giving of ourselves.Now, in order to receive Gods love, we must give our heart to Him...and that is an action of surrender. It is not something that He scares us into doing by dangling hellfire videos in front of our faces.I agree with you, Rob, in that we humans are already under the power of the enemy by default. Even if someone were to not believe in the devil, it could be argued that the devil plays a role as the tempter(temperer) here on Earth.In order to turn iron into steel, much heat must be applied.IOW, we don't become P.O.W.s of Gods or slaves in any sense.We bear His image, however...not in a religious prideful sense but in a practical day to day sense as we interact with this world.

With respect to PD, whose topic this is, (I don't want us to get off topic) I wanted to ask you a couple of questions.
1) Have saved people surrendered their entire wills to God? If so, why do so many of them unsurrender, as Ringo implied?2) Have you surrendered to the best of your ability?

In my belief, God never sends anyone to Hell. People choose Hell by default, since they don't choose Christ. Its not like missing a turnoff on the freeway that you didn't see, however. God gives many signs and many opportunities to discover a cheerful, willing relationship with Him.He does not need you or I to tell people the truth.In fact, our job here at EvC is to be as honest and open as possible, respecting our fellow posters, writing what we believe and using scriptures when warranted and also listening to the views of others.Not everyone here is a Southern Baptist or a Pentecostal.

Why is the Bible some mystical magical book only understandable by some? This is true. God expects me to study to show myself approved...not to merely repeat what a Pastor or Evangelist says. In the context of this definition, Dogma is not necessarily a bad thing. Believers are encouraged to study and think for themselves, but churches have belief statements for a reason, right?

Speaking from a personal perspective, an ideal day for me involves prayer at several levels and times. When I awaken, I acknowledge God as being alive and an integral part of my life. I pray for Him to teach me and guide me. I don't ask Him to drive the car for me. I don't ask Him to speak through me, unless there are people that I am meeting to whom I am preparing to talk to about Him.When going to work, I ask for Him to bless the workplace, to keep me humble and focused on being a representative of Him. I pray for every customer and ask Him to have me see them as He sees them and not how my own biases and stereotypes see them.Looking back on what I do, I don't think that I have surrendered my entire decision making process over to God as if I were an emotional and physical cripple. I DO ask Him to guide my conscience so that I will always act as He would have me act. This is a process that involves a type of surrender. My base impulses and emotional reactions are always under self scrutiny.

It seems to me that we are more akin to freed POWs rather than that we are expected to become POWs.In Romans 7:14-25, Paul says: Paul speaks of his realization that he is a victim of habits and addictions and that he often does what he does not want to do. Anyone who has problems with alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, or pornography knows what Paul is talking about. Paul does not speak of surrender, however. Notice Chapter 9: Apparently, it is as Ringo says. The enemy seeks to have you surrender. God wants you to cooperate.
A mind controlled by the Spirit is not a puppet mind. It is a mind that chose the Spirit.Edited by Phat, : fixed quote